Draining one of two hydronic zones

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    • #275558
      dbarr1

      Hi all. I’m re-routing an 80″ section of copper pipe to under the floor to make room for a deck door. To finish the job, I need to replace the existing section of pipe with my pre-soldered reroute section. I have both an upstairs zone and a downstairs zone, and I’ve isolated which pipes are for which zone by turning one zone off and letting the other heat. It looks like it would be relatively easy to shut off a manual valve just past the upstairs zone regulator valve. Where the upstairs piping returns to the boiler on the other side of the room, there is a faucet head (which appear to be where a hose would connect) and immediately after the faucet head there is a plastic shut-off valve. My question is will the water run freely from the hose after both the to and from manual valves are closed- or do I need to open the bleeder screw on the upstairs piping to allow water to flow out? If there are more than one bleeder screws upstairs (I found one and stopped looking) will simply opening the one I located, which is past the section I’m replacing, suffice to drain the entire zone including the section before the bleed screw? Any other tricks I need to be aware of?

      Thanks in advance for any guidance!

      Jim

    • #292396
      NickHydro
      Participant

      You don’t need to open the bleed upstairs, just force the water through til no bubbles out the valve downstairs.

      http://64.226.150.132/hydronic/service/purgeair.htm

    • #292397
      BigJim
      Participant

      Ouch, I have no idea what it means to “force water though” and I can’t figure it out from the link you sent. I’m not clear on how it is possible to force anything through if I’m closing the hand-valve immediately after the thermostat controlled valve. If that is closed, how can anything be forced through? If it is left open, won’t it continue to draw water from the boiler?

    • #292398
      NickHydro
      Participant

      The idea to catch on from the link is that city water pressure through the reducing valve will force water in from the city water line to pass through the circuit to force the bubbles out.

    • #292399
      BigJim
      Participant

      Ahh… that’s where you lost me. I don’t want the bubbles out, I want the pipe completely free from water before I take it apart. The physics I’m trying to figure out (and obviously not describing very well) is I need all of the water from this upstairs zone drained out, but it is going to be air-locked if I shut off both hand valves even if I attach a hose in between them. I’m guessing I need to figure out a way to introduce an air vent to allow water to flow out the hose, and I assumed the bleed screw was the most logical way.

    • #292400
      SylvanLMP
      Participant

      Well, Big Jim your in luck as I understand what a lawyer says not what they mean.

      I guess this is why I am considered an Expert witness for several Manhattan law firms.

      OK lets explain what your asking to the folks.

      Your looking to modify your hydronics system (hot water heating) and you closed the fill and return lines and NOW your concerned about residue water in the system especially now that it is isolated you cannot drain this system as your creating a vacuum, which you were correct in assuming.

      To solder the joints properly and cut in a new section YES you are correct in opening a few bleeder valves to remove ALL the water in this zone so you can solder a DRY PIPE safely following all applicable codes and safety precautions and any and all other escape clauses etc.

      It would also be a great idea to shut the automatic filler to your boiler AFTER you shut your boiler off electrically as dry firing is a bad thing.

      While your system is down it would be a fantastic time to consider installing a low water cut off.

      Personally giving any lawyer advice is really taking a chance BUT stating the obvious and being an expert I will consider this a one time professional courtesy thing.

      UNLESS you send me a private E mail then I can explain more in more detail as I would hate for the non knowing P&H frauds out there to try to do something and get themselves hurt by taking something out of context.

      Good luck

    • #292401
      SylvanLMP
      Participant
      Quote:
      In reply to message posted by NickHydro:
      You don’t need to open the bleed upstairs, just force the water through til no bubbles out the valve downstairs.
      Quote

      Nick my man, Home Boy, Big Jim doesn’t want to FILL the system kind sir He wants to empty it for servicing and relocation of copper heating tubing

      Getting Air bubbles OUT is great as you do not want air in the system other then in the expansion tank unless it is a diaphragm type.

      The old ball valve below the hose bib trick aint going to work here to get bubbles out of a draining system.

      You got to think like a Lawyer VERY methodical and exact not like a P&H Fraud .

      Personally I think the majority of single family home owners are very capable of doing their own heating as they have the same qualifications as a P&H contractor if you think about it.

      I’LL Bet Big Jim does not have an underslab failure that we read about HUH Nick? know why?
      Because Jim cares and reads and wants to do it right

    • #292402
      NickHydro
      Participant

      Thats silly, nobody lets good water out, they keep it. If he opens the bottom and top valves, the waterl flow out. Didnt yuo know that?

    • #292403
      Wallingford Plm+Htg
      Participant

      Sylvan you really need help!! We all know that Nick is really you.I wan’t you to know that their is help available when your ready.Send me a private e-mail and I’ll give you a list of some great mental health clinics.”Isn’t plummin fun”.

    • #292404
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by NickHydro:
      Thats silly, nobody lets good water out, they keep it. If he opens the bottom and top valves, the waterl flow out. Didnt yuo know that?


      Hey Nick did you ever did FRAUD P&H work?
      Fraud thinks Im several folks. I would imagine in breeding takes its toll LOL

      Must admit Frauds are out there huh

    • #292405
      BigJim
      Participant

      Thanks for the input all.. particularly Sylvan. I got the upstairs zone drained, cut away the old pipe, and soldered in the new. Of course I’m now to the point which was probably obvious to everyone but a lawyer… that there is a trick to getting the water to circulate once again. I tried a few things and all I can report back is that lips become extrememly sensitive after 15 minutes and your mouth goes completely numb after 30 minutes of manual siphoning… of course unsuccessfully. Is siphoning the solution at all, and if so, is there a tool that does this mechanically?

      Thanks again for the help!

      ~Jim

    • #292406
      NickHydro
      Participant

      Thu first post I did was about how to get the water back in. Bakwrds thinken works.

    • #292407
      BigJim
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by NickHydro:
      Thu first post I did was about how to get the water back in. Bakwrds thinken works.


      I’ll need to check for where the city water enters my home and examine the connections. I did notice that the pressure on my boiler has dropped to 10 from its customary 15. I’m assuming the normal 15 psig was based on someone smarter than me previously doing the height calculation referenced in your link. In layman terms, am I correct in understanding there should be a manual valve somewhere between the city water and my boiler that I can turn to allow more city water into my boiler to increase the pressure back to 15, and that once it reaches that level water should be forced upstairs? If that is correct, I’m assuming water will eventually start running freely out the hose I used to drain the system, and once it does I should be able to shut down that faucet head to stop water flowing from the hose, and re-open the valve just past the hose to allow the now running water to return to the boiler? I have to admit, the warning message in the link you provided scares the bejeebers out of me in that I’m unfamiliar with the parts mentioned by name, and it sounds like I need to open some type of relief valve while refilling the system to guard against hurting my boiler during the refill process. Is that accurate?

      By the way, at any time people are free to tell me to call a plumber if it appears I’m too dense to comprehend clearly conveyed instructions!

    • #292408
      NickHydro
      Participant

      Yer gettng ther Jim. Its smart to be scard someetime. The page sas > They are not required by most municipalities to be there so may not be there. > in then you would need> If a permanent line is not installed, the system must be filled by another means such as a hose, which is better done by an experienced plumber.
      So most is to reed the page til yuo get there. It tels you how to set the pressur if you reed it enuf.

    • #292409
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by BigJim:
      Thanks for the input all.. particularly Sylvan. I got the upstairs zone drained, cut away the old pipe, and soldered in the new. Of course I’m now to the point which was probably obvious to everyone but a lawyer… that there is a trick to getting the water to circulate once again. I tried a few things and all I can report back is that lips become extrememly sensitive after 15 minutes and your mouth goes completely numb after 30 minutes of manual siphoning… of course unsuccessfully. Is siphoning the solution at all, and if so, is there a tool that does this mechanically?

      Thanks again for the help!

      ~Jim


      Getting air out of the system is always a problem BUT considering how you knew to ask the right questions there is help available.

      Lets take it one step at a time.

      1- Please Close your bleeders.

      2- Go to the boiler and look at fast fill feature or by pass you hopefully you have installed.

      3- FYI The automatic feeder is set at cold water temperature and every system is slightly different.

      What the tri indicator gauge is showing is the following

      SEE Sylvan’s EXHIBIT A-C

      A – The altitude of the static head in feet see the red indicator?

      B- The temperature

      C- Pressure

      I will explain each in a private E mail to you as OFF THE WALL P&H FRAUDS out there will get a head ache wondering about the whys and how’s of heatinnnn stuff.

      How to fill a down zone 101

      After the bleeders on the radiators or baseboards are closed open the boiler fill valve

      If this automatic filler has a lever (fast fill feature) you can use it for the time being to fill the depleted zone fast BUT do the following.

      1- leave the zone already filled isolated from the system for now.

      2- If you have an expansion tank with a valve before it isolate it for now.

      3- Close the lower ball or gate valve on the zone we wish to fill (Below hose bib)

      4- Open the hose bib (garden hose connection Hydro Nick talked about before) Attach a hose to it and place it in an area you don’t mind having possible dirty water discharging into

      5- Set the zone valve if applicable to manual open

      6- Use the fast fill feature and watch the hose for air and water to flow

      7- You should in a few minutes be seeing some water and air coming out of the end of the garden hose.

      8- Slightly throttle the hose bib to slow the escaping water down.

      9- Keep watching and within several minutes you should see a steady stream of water NOW close the fast fill and the hose bib

      Your gauge pressure should read between 12-15 PSI (ILL explain why)

      Now open your expansion tank isolation valve if you have closed it.

      Open the valve below the hose connecting valve and wait and listen (water moving) again watching your pressure gauge.

      Now you can double check to make sure air is out by bleeding the “bleeder valves”

      Your looking for a full flow no air what so ever.

      Once your satisfied there is no air in this system go back to the boiler and set the zone valve back to automatic

      Turn on your electric power to the boiler and fire it up and watch the pressure rise to the line already marked.

      This is a great time to also test your relief valve while the system is still cold but be careful.

      As the temperature rises so does the pressure (we call this phenomenon pressure temperature relationship) SEE exhibit “D” in the private E mail

      Watch the temperature and pressure and make sure the boiler cycles properly.

      NOW you can open the isolated zone and your back in business.

      Jim, in some area’s anyone can do heating no real training needed not even the ability to read and under stand which is why so many non knowing folks do get into P&H as no licensed required Amazing huh?

      You sir have a great grasp of the science being the reason why there is 12-15 pound set pressure

      When the system is satisfied check all your joints and piping you just installed for possible leaks BE CAREFUL as these pipes can be well over 200 degrees F.

      Check out the fantastic WEB site that Hydro Nick pointed out and please consider joining my list as we have a great lady Medical Doctor and an MBA on staff and we sure could use your expertise on there also.

      Have a great one Big Jim and thank you for your E mail

      By the way OFF THE WALLFRAUD P&H Again you came through in never ever giving anyone sound advice

      YOU gave this list all your information and they still know NOTHING from you.
      P&H WALLFRAUD does it again

    • #292410
      BigJim
      Participant

      Boy, I made a couple of the steps longer than needed due to inexperience but that picture of the pressure reducing valve was a tremendous help in finding her. It worked like a charm in building the pressure and forcing the water upstairs. As luck would have it, my solders appear to be holding beautifully… very nerveracking to wait a day to determine that. I’d love to tile over it tonight, but my gfriend wants to wait a day to make sure my solders don’t spring a leak. Oh well, its true I have set a precedence doing a couple other projects… but that’s for the electrician board to speculate about. As far as the plumbing board knows, I’m a success story.

      Thank you very much Nick and Sylvan, and Sylvan please send me more information about your list via email. Sounds like something I’d be interested in.

      ~Jim

      » This message has been edited by BigJim on 23 May 2002

    • #292411
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by BigJim:
      Boy, I made a couple of the steps longer than needed due to inexperience but that picture of the pressure reducing valve was a tremendous help in finding her. It worked like a charm in building the pressure and forcing the water upstairs. As luck would have it, my solders appear to be holding beautifully… very nerveracking to wait a day to determine that. I’d love to tile over it tonight, but my gfriend wants to wait a day to make sure my solders don’t spring a leak. Oh well, its true I have set a precedence doing a couple other projects… but that’s for the electrician board to speculate about. As far as the plumbing board knows, I’m a success story.

      Thank you very much Nick and Sylvan, and Sylvan please send me more information about your list via email. Sounds like something I’d be interested in.

      ~Jim

      » This message has been edited by BigJim on 23 May 2002


      Jim it is with great honor I have signed you onto my list.

      Hey if you ever want to make a career change you can go right into heating as your very qualified as your have just completed a perfect job.

      You Jim have again proven what I have said for over 20 years the Majority of home owners who can read above 4th grade level can be fantastic heating folks with no problem what so ever.

      Feels great doing your own repairs huh?

      I know how it feels to cross professions and come out smelling like a rose.

      Today again I came through as an expert witness in a burn case

      I hope they nail the P&H guy to a wall and his insurance company for not insisting contractors should pass a written test as well as practical

    • #292412
      Wallingford Plm+Htg
      Participant

      Sylvan..You said that I never give anyone sound advice,but I did suggest that you go to a mental health clinic.That has to be some of the best advice given on this site!!

    • #292413
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by Wallingford Plm+Htg:
      Sylvan..You said that I never give anyone sound advice,but I did suggest that you go to a mental health clinic.That has to be some of the best advice given on this site!!


      You must be thrilled knowing your the kind of FRAUD I teach mechanics not to be like.

      YOUR the bottom of the line when it comes to training.

      How do you spell looser? “OFF THE WALL FRAUD P&H” for starters

      You would not make a pimple on an apprentice butt

      A pimple on your butt would be considered a brain tumor TSK,TSK

      Looser where is your lic number and state so we can contact your local plumbing board and ask how they let Stumble BUMS get to dabble in any trade.

      Some are born beautiful some are born smart YOUR the two time looser of all time..

      Keep reading my posts and someday you may even learn enough to know how stupid you really are in P&H READ learn and shut up moron

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