Hot water recycling device (water saver)

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    • #275450
      linda chew

      Last year I found a device on the internet that enables saving of water by re-cycling cold water to the boiler before hot water reaches the hot tap/faucet.

      I think the name was “Hot Chilli” or “Chilli Pepper”, but searching the internet for those terms reveals lots of irrelevant pages.

      Does anyone remember the device and can point me to where it is sold? Maybe you are using it and could recommend it… (It was made by an American company)

      Thanks in advance for your help.

    • #292146
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by agulesin:
      Last year I found a device on the internet that enables saving of water by re-cycling cold water to the boiler before hot water reaches the hot tap/faucet.

      I think the name was “Hot Chilli” or “Chilli Pepper”, but searching the internet for those terms reveals lots of irrelevant pages.

      Does anyone remember the device and can point me to where it is sold? Maybe you are using it and could recommend it… (It was made by an American company)

      Thanks in advance for your help.


      Are you sure it was not made by NIBCO?

      They havwe a fantastic device like the one you just wrote about.

    • #292147
      johnws
      Participant

      The product you are looking for is called the Chilipepper 3000. Their website is http://www.chilipepper.com/. If you want to look at an alternative, the one Sylvan mentions is “Just Right” by Nibco, their website is http://www.nibco.com/newproducts/justright/.
      Another one you can look at is http://www.autocirc.com/.
      Good luck.

    • #292148
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by johnws:
      The product you are looking for is called the Chilipepper 3000. Their website is http://www.chilipepper.com/. If you want to look at an alternative, the one Sylvan mentions is “Just Right” by Nibco, their website is http://www.nibco.com/newproducts/justright/.
      Another one you can look at is http://www.autocirc.com/.
      Good luck.


      Wow John YOU ARE GOOD thank you

    • #292149
      Wallingford Plm+Htg
      Participant

      I can’t believe that Sylvan is suggesting that someone should install a PLASTIC device on a hot water heater.Does that mean that it’s ok to use plastic now? I do recall you saying that you would only use plastic under deress.

    • #292150
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by Wallingford Plm+Htg:
      I can’t believe that Sylvan is suggesting that someone should install a PLASTIC device on a hot water heater.Does that mean that it’s ok to use plastic now? I do recall you saying that you would only use plastic under deress.


      AGAIN OFF the WALL FRAUD speaks through his AH Typical for a Billy Butt crack **********

      once again I will reiterate my views on MATERIALS

      As much as I love copper and use copper almost exclusively for domestic water supply, I know as a Professional Master Plumber no one product is the best.
      For example, since thermoplastics are non-conductors, they are immune to the electrolytic or galvanic corrosion that attacks and often destroys metal piping materials, particularly when installed underground.

      Copper conveying hot water at 180 degrees F is prone to failure if the velocity is allowed to be in excess of 2-3 FPS (feet per second).PVDF can handle high temperatures up to 280 Deg. F (137 Deg. C) and CPVC and PP can handle temperatures up to 210 Deg F (98 Deg. C)

      I would never put copper against the plastic piping in an acid system or even water with lots of minerals, like well water.

      Copper is subject to erosion from lack of proper installation (no reaming) or poor design (excessive velocity).

      Copper can allow hydraulic shock to be even more intense than its steel or brass piping counterpart.

      Copper in marine use just doesn’t hold up as well as other piping materials.

      I would never think of using copper for my main sewer piping as Cast Iron has longevity and the mass to have a very quiet system and plastic waste is one of the noisiest systems imaginable.

      Copper type DWV is paper thin and subject to attack from chemical action of domestic drain cleaners.

      To say one type of material is better than another is absurd just like saying a jet is the best plane out there BUT I certainly would not want to do crop dusting with an F14.

      Manufacturers are always pushing their products as the best, BUT as Master Plumbers and Gas fitters and Drainers we must make the final decision what is the proper material and equipment for each job application and what is allowed by codes and not just price.

      Copper is a great material if used properly and you know its limitations.I only use plastic under duress BUT if the system requirements needed plastic for an acid waste or water conditions warranted it, I would use the proper type of plastic as required by job requirements.Black steel is great for steam applications as the coefficient of expansion is not as great as copper and you wont get the loss of BTUs from the piping.

      Black steel is also stronger and resists the possibility of having the pipe wall penetrated by a nail, like a copper gas line can, can really be dangerous.

      On a steam pipe you have the real possibility of having severe burns using copper opposed to black steel if you brush against this piping.

      Steel can be threaded, welded and use mechanical clamps to hold much higher pressures.Some members of the population are actually allergic to copper and any water passing through this piping must be filtered.Thankfully we Licensed plumbers do keep abreast of current code changes and new materials and designs coming into play, especially in the heating industry with much lower hydronic temperatures and plastic being used underground in long joint free grids.The problem as I see it is many material manufacturers always tell how great their products are but never the short comings!

      What I do get upset about is the non knowing dabbling in piping trades with NO FORMAL education or these mutts lacking any kind of REAL code knowledge LIKE WALLFRAUD and his no knowing lack of skills or knowledge A REAL DUMMY

    • #292151
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by Wallingford Plm+Htg:
      I can’t believe that Sylvan is suggesting that someone should install a PLASTIC device on a hot water heater.Does that mean that it’s ok to use plastic now? I do recall you saying that you would only use plastic under deress.


      Off the WALLFRAUD good thing you never saw a dip tube (used in a hot water heater) as they are made of thermo plastics.

      Areal Fraud uses P&H as they have no license as a AH with a big mouth has no clue to piping materials.

      Hey FRAUD P&H how would you calibrate a Leslie steam valve?

      Hey Fraud Which “plastic” features remarkable high temperature performance and can handle “corrosive” fluids at working temperatures up to 280 degrees?

      Which “Plastic” has a great resistance to halogens and weathering to UV? Come on FRAUD your a P&H guy you got to know this correct? After all plastic is plastic HUH GUY?

      Or do you only PVC, CPVC, PVDF, PP and Can you tell which ones are suitable for various conditions?

      Of course you being a plastic specialist knows the actual working pressures and the temperature pressure relationship and what chemicals are best suited for each type of “plastic”

      Fraud can you please explain about the deflection per inch per degree of thermal expansion and contraction of copper Type K as opposed to schedule 80 CPVC on a 60-100 degree temperature range with a WWP of 34 PSIA

      Of course you will or are you REALLY a FRAUD and really have no clue to plastic or anything else relating to P&H Are you a failure or not please explain the virtues of plastic
      OK AH mouth please explain WHAT material you would suggest to be used in a dielectric nipple and WHY DUH come on Fraud its simple basic P&H questions guy.

      Well you did menthion my name so let the world see YOUR qualifications ok FRAUD P&H

      Still waiting for the heating answers DUH

    • #292152
      Wallingford Plm+Htg
      Participant

      I didn’t ask for an exam.I just wanted to know why you would reccomend that someone should install this plastic device?You said again that you would only use plastic under duress.I wouldn’t consider a convenience device a reason for”duress”.I’m also surprised that your ok with the installation of compression fitting’s on a supply line.

    • #292153
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by Wallingford Plm+Htg:
      I didn’t ask for an exam.I just wanted to know why you would reccomend that someone should install this plastic device?You said again that you would only use plastic under duress.I wouldn’t consider a convenience device a reason for”duress”.I’m also surprised that your ok with the installation of compression fitting’s on a supply line.


      Well please how about answering something ok Jack Leg Fraud P&H

      Compression fitting ok Hero what is the seperation strenth of a soldered joint 95-5 and a screwed joint and a flare and a compression come one YOU brought it up tell us WHAT IS WRONG with a “compression” joint HUH HUH HUH????

      OFF the WALLFRAUD look at the education I just gave you YOUR aleady looking at pictures

      Someday you may even learn to READ past 4th grade code level.

      Well WALLFRAUD please how these devices work OK P&H expert

      You really are a Moron huh?

      FRAUD said “I wouldn’t consider a convenience device a reason for”duress”

      Wow off the wall you had better learn from a helper WHY people need these types of devices God are you really that thick Or do you work hard trying to be an imbecile?

      PLEASE just post where you dabble so I can contact the locality and ask HOW they allow *********** out of a cage?

      You are by far the very worst of the misfits I have ever read posting Congratulations your number one.

      The Worst of the worst.

    • #292154
      Wallingford Plm+Htg
      Participant

      Hey Sylvan,I didn’t mean to make you mad.I was just confused by you recomending the use of a “fantastic plastic device”when there was no case of “duress”.I also didn’t think that you would use a compression fitting on a main line when a soldered fittng or a union would be a better job.I am wondering what would cause you so much “duress” that you would install a “fantastic plastic device” instead of a solid bronze circulator.Oh, and could you please stop calling me names.Your really hurting my feelings.Your reminding me of when I was was in 3rd grade and a bully stole my yo yo.Hey,come to think of it what school did you go to?

    • #292155
      agulesin
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by johnws:
      The product you are looking for is called the Chilipepper 3000. Their website is http://www.chilipepper.com/. If you want to look at an alternative, the one Sylvan mentions is “Just Right” by Nibco, their website is http://www.nibco.com/newproducts/justright/.
      Another one you can look at is http://www.autocirc.com/.
      Good luck.


      Thanks for the info SylvanLMP and Johnws…

      I looked at the pages, (except chilipepper.com , which is irrelevant). The Autocirc is a similar device, but both it and the Nibco “Just Right” always bring hot water to the tap, whether you are going to use it or not.

      The device I found had a pump in it and, as I understood, only brings water when you want it, I guess there is a button on it. The main purpose of it is SAVING WATER , not just to provide continuous hot water to the faucet.

      Thanks again for the info, hope someone has seen the device I am searching for.

    • #292156
      agulesin
      Participant

      Ok folks, hold your horses!

      I found it!!

      At the touch of a button your hot water is pumped rapidly to your sink or shower. Nothing gets run down the drain, saving you thousands of gallons of water per year!

      The Chilipepper is a small, powerful, pump that mounts under your sink

      http://www.chilipepperapp.com/

      Best wishes and happy plumbing!

    • #292157
      Jerry Peck
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by agulesin:

      snip

      The main purpose of it is SAVING WATER, not just to provide continuous hot water to the faucet.

      Thanks again for the info, hope someone has seen the device I am searching for.


      The purposes of a pump driven or gravity flow hot water recirculating system are two-fold:
      1) to provide almost instant hot water at each tap off the recirculating loop
      2) to also save water

      By providing almost instant hot water at each tap off the loop, there is no need to run a lot of water to get hot water, thus, the non-wasted water (to get hot water to the faucet being used) is saved.

      I think you may be confusing saving water and saving energy. A hot water recirculating system save water, however, it may (or may not) save energy.

      If installed in a frequently used system, the hot water recirculating loop may also save energy. If installed in a seldom used system, the energy spent continuously pumping the water (not applicable to gravity flow systems) may offset the energy to heat the water being wasted in a non-recirculating system (turn the hot water on, let if flow down the drain until the water finally gets warm enough – forget getting hot, just warm enough).

      I’ve always thought is a lack of thought when the plumbing code REQUIRES 1.6 gpf commodes, yet ALLOWS wasting gallons of water just to get hot water to wash your hands after using the WATER SAVER commode. Aren’t you supposed to wash your hands with hot water after using the bathroom?

      I inspected a house last week with a separate guest house where, after running the ‘hot’ water at the bathroom lavatory faucet for 15 MINUTES, the water was only just getting to 90 degrees (measured with a thermometer, not guessing). No, no one invloved with designing or building the house thought about installing a water heater in the guest house.

    • #292158
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by Jerry Peck:
      The purposes of a pump driven or gravity flow hot water recirculating system are two-fold:
      1) to provide almost instant hot water at each tap off the recirculating loop
      2) to also save water

      By providing almost instant hot water at each tap off the loop, there is no need to run a lot of water to get hot water, thus, the non-wasted water (to get hot water to the faucet being used) is saved.

      I think you may be confusing saving water and saving energy. A hot water recirculating system save water, however, it may (or may not) save energy.

      If installed in a frequently used system, the hot water recirculating loop may also save energy.

      If installed in a seldom used system, the energy spent continuously pumping the water (not applicable to gravity flow systems) may offset the energy to heat the water being wasted in a non-recirculating system (turn the hot water on, let if flow down the drain until the water finally gets warm enough – forget getting hot, just warm enough).

      I’ve always thought is a lack of thought when the plumbing code REQUIRES 1.6 gpf commodes, yet ALLOWS wasting gallons of water just to get hot water to wash your hands after using the WATER SAVER commode. Aren’t you supposed to wash your hands with hot water after using the bathroom?

      I inspected a house last week with a separate guest house where, after running the ‘hot’ water at the bathroom lavatory faucet for 15 MINUTES, the water was only just getting to 90 degrees (measured with a thermometer, not guessing). No, no one invloved with designing or building the house thought about installing a water heater in the guest house.


      Hi Jerry here is an article I wrote in July 1999 http://www.masterplumbers.com/plumbviews/1999/rec_pump.html

      This is one of my favourite questions:

      Is a hot water recirculating pump an energy/water efficient purchase or a luxury purchase?
      We’ve heard that it pays for itself in 3 years.

      How can that be when you’re paying for a pump to be running and when there’s heat loss from pipes through which hot water is constantly being recirculated?

      Here’s my response to this great question, but to make it more interesting we will let you be the one to answer it.

      Let me just give you some facts ok.

      When you turn on the hot water faucet (tap) you normally let the water run and run and run until it gets hot correct so far? Y or N

      This wasted down the drain water was heated and now when the water is shut off the hot water remaining in the pipes will again cool off Y or N ?

      If your paying for water Via a water meter your not only wasting fuel BUT precious potable water correct Y or N ?

      If you had a recirulation pump you would not put undo stress on your H/W heater due to thermo shock of cold water entering this tank as the cold water would be TEMPERED with the hot return water correct Y or N ?

      The actual circulator would be of minimal horse power like 1/12 or 1/16 just enough to keep the water moving. Y or N ?

      With this added on ENERGY saving device would you not also be getting an added benefit of almost instant H/W with little loss of water. Y or N ?

      All water heaters have stand by losses and if you stayed by your heater you would hear it come on and off several times during the day. Y or N ?
      Now lets consider all the above if you had a constant circulation with insulated pipes your actually saving your heater from trying to heat cold water from entering the system you would have much less condensation less thermo stress on the tank, MUCH, MUCH less waste of clean fresh water. Not paying for water to sit in a pipe cool only to be run down a drain waiting for it to get hot again to start this wasteful cycle again.
      As more and more localities meter the water and prices start to sky rocket as clean fresh water isfind and as more water is wasted and larger pipes are needed to convey water to your home and other people who waste water and your Gas/Electric bills climb higher to make up for people literly throwing HOT paid for water down the drain. Then you can tell me if it is cheaper to install an INEXPENSIVE efficient bronze circulator or not?

      I would never be the one to give a snap judgement saying yes they don’t pay for themselves as we have to make our own minds up. You decide if this is just a “convience” or the right energy water saving thing to do.

      Imagine this July 23 1999 and here is is 2002 and my advice is still sound Talk about being a head of my time LOL By the way I have installed REC lines from the day I started plumbing way back when there were mechanics who cared

    • #292159
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by Wallingford Plm+Htg:
      Hey Sylvan,I didn’t mean to make you mad.I was just confused by you recomending the use of a “fantastic plastic device”when there was no case of “duress”.I also didn’t think that you would use a compression fitting on a main line when a soldered fittng or a union would be a better job.I am wondering what would cause you so much “duress” that you would install a “fantastic plastic device” instead of a solid bronze circulator.Oh, and could you please stop calling me names.Your really hurting my feelings.Your reminding me of when I was was in 3rd grade and a bully stole my yo yo.Hey,come to think of it what school did you go to?


      Bronze wow not knowing water quality Or if fouling could be a problem or the pH of the water and your saying “Bronze”

      Great now what exact composition of “Bronze” are you talking about?

      Tell me like RED Brass or Yellow brass or Muntz Metal

      Hey Fraud you said Bronze with how much copper and Tin Or Zinc would you suggest? BECAREFUL Fraud we dont want dezincfication do we?

      What Velocity are you suggesting for this circulator?

      How many GPM are you planning on moving?

      Or are you the kind of Fraud who goes to a home center and says “give me a pump” one size fits all HUH P&H man?

      You should be ashamed to even think your a handyman as your not even that good

      How do YOU figure pump efficiency from horse power?

      Are you going to have constant circulation or on an aquastat THEN please explain why and which one gives a longer “pump” life.

      Come on Fraud your posting materials for a circulator please explain what a “Billy Butt Crack” should know before they shoot off there stupid mouth saying BRONZE.

      Is this water hard? Soft? sandy? Acidic.

      What pitch of the impeller would you suggest?

      Why not stainless steel impeller with a monel seat?

      Do we have a fixed connection to the impeller or magnet type bearing assembly?

      Does this “bronze” circulator have any type of over load protection Or manual reset?

      Is the water going to act as a lubricant or do we need to service this “Bronze” device?

      Amazing when a childs mentality learns a new word there repeat it having no clue to why

    • #292160
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by agulesin:
      Ok folks, hold your horses!

      I found it!!

      At the touch of a button your hot water is pumped rapidly to your sink or shower. Nothing gets run down the drain, saving you thousands of gallons of water per year!

      The Chilipepper is a small, powerful, pump that mounts under your sink

      http://www.chilipepperapp.com/

      Best wishes and happy plumbing!


      JUST A MINUTE THERE BUCKO

      Real PLUMBING is not that easy partner

      Yes, it is fantastic to get water moving fast BUT at what price?

      You see certain piping materials are prone to premature failure from excessive velocity Erosion for example on copper tubing ESPECIALLY with hot water.

      Excessive velocity can cause hydraulic shock waves (water hammer) A very dangerous condition.

      There are certain guide lines an installing journeymen have to follow before installing any pump or circulator.

      There is of course the Hazen-Williams formulas dealing with flow which not only can make lots of noise but can destroy a system from internal erosion.

      The problem is a lot of companies will tell you the GPM flow rate through a given sized pipe and leave it to the mechanic to then figure the velocity in FPS.

      For example we can post on this list and say we have 3″ diameter pipe with say 65 PSI what is the gallon flow and what is the velocity?

      Of course WALLFRAUD being a P&H guy can rattle the correct answer off in about 45 seconds after all this is a “plumbers list” and this is nothing more then really basic helpers questions (2nd year apprentice to be exact)

      Copper tubing is not designed to handle more then 6 FPS and on hydronics heating Hot water @180 degree the CDA says keep the flow rate to no more then 2-3 FPS.

      OK FRAUD lets say this device pushes 3 GPM 1″ pipe what is the velocity and Fraud does piping materials make a difference?

    • #292161
      Wallingford Plm+Htg
      Participant

      I was going to try to answer all your questions just to see what kind of grade I could get.Then I relized that it didn’t matter because when a real pro like you said a “fantastic plastic device” is good,I made the switch.How could I not follow any man who obsesses about plumbing the way that you do.If I did take the test what kind of grading curve do you use?I’m afraid that with having a life “unlike you” I may have slacked a little on my studies.Somehow I do manage to do a very good buisness and keep my customers happy.I just worry now that one of my customers may ask me about the “deflection per inch per degree of thermal expansion and contraction of copper type k” man will I look stupid.Well gotta go now.I have some studying to do.

    • #292162
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by Wallingford Plm+Htg:
      I was going to try to answer all your questions just to see what kind of grade I could get.Then I relized that it didn’t matter because when a real pro like you said a “fantastic plastic device” is good,I made the switch.How could I not follow any man who obsesses about plumbing the way that you do.If I did take the test what kind of grading curve do you use?I’m afraid that with having a life “unlike you” I may have slacked a little on my studies.Somehow I do manage to do a very good buisness and keep my customers happy.I just worry now that one of my customers may ask me about the “deflection per inch per degree of thermal expansion and contraction of copper type k” man will I look stupid.Well gotta go now.I have some studying to do.


      Wow Next you may even learn there ARE CODES too To bad you did not study before you screwed those poor people thinking they hired someone who knew something about some aspect of the trade Seeing how you admit your laking skills NOW do the right thing and get out of the field and let a QUALFIED person do it

    • #292163
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by Wallingford Plm+Htg:
      I was going to try to answer all your questions just to see what kind of grade I could get.Then I relized that it didn’t matter because when a real pro like you said a “fantastic plastic device” is good,I made the switch.How could I not follow any man who obsesses about plumbing the way that you do.If I did take the test what kind of grading curve do you use?I’m afraid that with having a life “unlike you” I may have slacked a little on my studies.Somehow I do manage to do a very good buisness and keep my customers happy.I just worry now that one of my customers may ask me about the “deflection per inch per degree of thermal expansion and contraction of copper type k” man will I look stupid.Well gotta go now.I have some studying to do.


      One more point You said

      “deflection per inch per degree of thermal expansion and contraction of copper type k”

      If your using “K” copper for hot water you did have a real mechanic instruct you that K copper has a thicker wall then L or M and thus the velocity would increase and cause more erosion of this type of tubing.

      Do not feel bad a lot of morons in the field facing an erosion condition because of using “M” tubing for heating make this stupid simple mistake of installing a thicker wall and then this creates even more problems.

      Hey dont take my word ask the Copper institute.

      I guess WALLFRAUD is correct as using the wrong wall thickness and you being a FRAUD is perfect name you have chosen.

      Why did you pick on plumbing to dabble in?

      There are so many other things you could have possibly learned.

      Plumbing and heating is not for everyone guy NOT a put down fact of life.

      YOUR never going to be fully qualified journeyman let alone a semi skilled mechanic.

      All your postings so far are wrong and your yet to give one piece of sound advice.

      You look to pick apart other postings BUT yet to add anything semi useful.

      You even admitted I got you to look into the books something you didnt even think of yourself.

      Home centers are full of folks dabbling in plumbing and I am sure they have read and understand as many books as you have.

      Your very lucky some states actually sell licenses to anyone willing to pay a fee but in your heart you know your not even close to bveing skilled.

      Im sorry guy to be the one to tell you, but it better you dabble in something that requires less mental skill then you have shown here.

      Plumbing is not for everyone, please dont feel bad… The TRUTH shall set you free, like the TRUTH you show where your located

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