Hot water radiator pipe repairs

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    • #275434
      avlombardi

      I am repairing broken hot water heating system pipes (usually cracked elbows or tees). Is it usually permissable to replace cast iron elbows or tees with copper? The reason for doing this is to avoid replacing an entire run of pipe, or sometimes because I am working in very tight spaces – sometimes there is barely room to turn an elbow.

      If it is permissable, are there special fittings I should use going from black pipe to copper and back to black pipe (I am familiar with male/female adapters & transition fittings) but I have heard there may be corrosion problems caused by using dissimilar types of metal pipe.

      Thanks.

    • #292055
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by Douglas Tedeschi:
      I am repairing broken hot water heating system pipes (usually cracked elbows or tees). Is it usually permissable to replace cast iron elbows or tees with copper? The reason for doing this is to avoid replacing an entire run of pipe, or sometimes because I am working in very tight spaces – sometimes there is barely room to turn an elbow.

      If it is permissable, are there special fittings I should use going from black pipe to copper and back to black pipe (I am familiar with male/female adapters & transition fittings) but I have heard there may be corrosion problems caused by using dissimilar types of metal pipe.

      Thanks.


      Wow, YOU heard there is a problem using dissimilar types of metals.

      OK let me think about this one

      A radiator valve is BRASS and connected to a black steel pipe and a Cast Iron or steel convector for 50 years yet nothing seems to leak AMAZING?

      How about a black Gas line with a BRASS gas cock Again no leaks HUH?

      Lets keep looking at all these problems that YOU HEARD about dissimilar metals

      Black steel for fire suppression systems YET the sprinkler heads are brass AMAZING how folks have no clue to mixing these metals and the harm they are doing

      Thank you for enlightening me as to the possibilities of what I thought was possible with a little knowledge of “basic” piping designs.

      You know here is a little secrete between us, to be a REAL “plumber” takes 5 years of formal education 10,000 hours.

      To be a “Master” takes a few more years plus many, many more tests and lots of education.

      I think it would be very wise for you to hire a licensed PROFESSIONAL before you end up hurting yourself or some poor innocent who hired you.

      Not for nothing but the questions you posted above a 1st year apprentice knows the answers to.

      By you asking these questions means your may be over your head in this job.

      Good luck sounds like your going to need it..

    • #292056
      fourth year
      Participant

      Forget S’s sarcasm, he is from NYC and that is all he knows. If you cannot turn an elbow, how will you make a solder joint without burning the building down. Second, because of the different expansion and contraction rates of copper/brass and steel, female joints especially should be made before being fastened to the steel pipe, which in your case sounds like it would not be possible. It appears that your repair problems are exactly what unions were created to solve.

    • #292057
      SylvanLMP
      Participant

      “If you cannot turn an elbow, how will you make a solder joint without burning the building down”

      This a real moronic statement.

      CLASS is in session AGAIN

      There are electric heating (soldering) equipment for sale or rent where an open flame is not practicable

      About the coefficient of expansion of various piping this is why a helper mentality fails when it comes to provisions for expansion and contraction.

      Expansion joints or four fitting swings etc BUT thats another class.

      Many times when cost is a factor we do connect a copper line to an existing black steel system.

      I have connected 4″ Copper to 4″ steel piping so far with no adverse conditions happening thus far BUT the system is only 22 years old so lets give it some more time..

      For example there is something called “heat block”
      Or more commonly called a heat sink.

      The heat sink will prevent over heating of the female connection to male threads.

      As a mechanic we use a fire extinguisher and normally wet down the area if there is any possibility of fire.

      The other thing a dummy would never think of is the heat shielding devices we a “skilled mechanic” use to attach to a torch and thus the flame spins all around the fitting enabling the joint to get hotter faster , YET will not even scorch anything within 1/2″ of the flame including paper.

      As a true mechanic we also are aware of products like Hercules Swiff 95-5 solder that is easy to use so even stumble bums can make a decent joint with minimum skills.

      » This message has been edited by SylvanLMP on 31 January 2002

    • #292058
      racefanone
      Participant

      Fourth Year Where are you from and what do you do? Seems like your profile is not complete.

    • #292059
      fourth year
      Participant

      Phoenix, AZ. Plumbing contractor in business for 25 years. In plumbing since apprenticeship in ’52. Profile has everything I feel is important.

    • #292060
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by fourth year:
      Phoenix, AZ. Plumbing contractor in business for 25 years. In plumbing since apprenticeship in ’52. Profile has everything I feel is important.


      With so many years in the trade it is really a shame you never took it seriously enough to learn anything HOW SAD

    • #292061
      racefanone
      Participant

      Fourth Year,you are kiddingren’t you? I have ocean front property there,it is for sale,like to buy it?

    • #292062
      fourth year
      Participant

      Why would I kid you? My qualifications are as good or better than Mr. S’s but I do not feel that I have to justify my experience to you or anyone else.

    • #292063
      racefanone
      Participant

      Fourth Year,Interested in the property?

    • #292064
      fourth year
      Participant

      Why should I be? When the big one comes I will have my own property. Yours may just be a swamp then. Interested in any alligators for it?

    • #292065
      racefanone
      Participant

      How much for the gators? Coming from you I would bet they are crocks

    • #292066
      fourth year
      Participant

      Well, since ‘gators are a protected species, except when they play in the Fiesta Bowl, crocs may have to do. But if a croc gets you, I doubt that you will be complaining about the lack of ‘gators. But a question. If you do not believe the truth when it is given here, why would you believe the same information if it were in a profile? You could indeed be racefanone, but you could also hate NASCAR with a passion. The name and the profile do not necessarily have anything to do with reality. Just as one poster uses LMP but that does not have to mean he really is one.

    • #292067
      racefanone
      Participant

      Thank you for the words of wisdom.So judging from some of your answers to plumbing questions,instead of fourth year ,you really should be called first year.Thank you now we know.The land is still for sale

    • #292068
      fourth year
      Participant

      You can call me anything you want to, but I answer to Master or Guru. Now for some other truth that you will also not believe, as if I cared. In 1955, I was a fourth year apprentince in UA 130, having skipped the first year due to experience. I was operating the company while the owner was incapacitated. I was in charge of the journeymen crews. I was driving a brand new Lincoln Capri convertible. I was bringing home $42.42 a week (fourth year scale). I had just fired the plumbing inspector from one of the neighboring towns who worked for us, for doing shoddy work. And when UA 130 went on strike, I was one of the few that was allowed to continue working. If you want to solve your problems follow my advice. If you want to be baffled by B.S. follow someone else’s or your own. I could care less which you do.

    • #292069
      SylvanLMP
      Participant


      In reply to message posted by fourth year:
      You can call me anything you want to, but I answer to Master or Guru. Now for some other truth that you will also not believe, as if I cared. In 1955, I was a fourth year apprentince in UA 130, having skipped the first year due to experience. I was operating the company while the owner was incapacitated. I was in charge of the journeymen crews. I was driving a brand new Lincoln Capri convertible. I was bringing home $42.42 a week (fourth year scale). I had just fired the plumbing inspector from one of the neighboring towns who worked for us, for doing shoddy work. And when UA 130 went on strike, I was one of the few that was allowed to continue working. If you want to solve your problems follow my advice. If you want to be baffled by B.S. follow someone else’s or your own. I could care less which you do.


      Man WHAT do you smoke??????????????????????

      Are you still in the “home” on medication???

      I hope you really dont believe the fecal mater your spewing on here..

      Wow

    • #292070
      racefanone
      Participant

      You’re right Fourth Year ,I don’t believe you.Aren’t you the guy that used to be a brain surgeon,but gave it up to become a plumber because you got tired of starving? By the way did I tell you that I am a jet pilot? Oh,by the way Fourth Year the land is still for sale.

      » This message has been edited by racefanone on 07 February 2002

      » This message has been edited by racefanone on 07 February 2002

    • #292071
      fourth year
      Participant

      It was not a brain surgeon, it was an IBM systems analyst and senior programmer, during a short Sabbatical from plumbing.

    • #292072
      fourth year
      Participant

      As for the land, right now there are two exclusive groups of people. They are so exclusive that there is only one person in each of them. The first is the number of people who were smart enough to sell you the land. The second is the number of people dumb enough to buy the property, (that is you). If I buy the land then you not only lose your only claim to fame but have the share the occupancy of the first group which dilutes his fame by half. So in the interests of letting you have some uniqueness, since it does not appear you have any other outstanding ability, I defer on the purchase.

    • #292073
      Harold Kestenholz
      Participant

      I can understand from your 1955 answer what the difficulty is and why fourth year gets so much flack. Prior to 1990, mechanics could engineer many of their jobs themselves by installing ‘good-enough’ replacements. Since then, liability has made it impossible to work with other than factory approvals and code compliance. Common practices of the older time are now not good enough. Prudence dictates that responses be based on code compliance and factory specification, no longer on ‘common practices’ and OJT prior generation practices.

      It took me a while to accept this responsibility and I receive flack from DIT’s who do not realize this change. Professionals who have not accepted this imposition on their ‘freedom’ may be doing frequent disservice and the ones who have accepted this change criticize.

    • #292074
      SylvanLMP
      Participant

      Prior to 1990, mechanics could engineer many of their jobs themselves by installing ‘good-enough’ replacements. Since then, liability has made it impossible to work with other than factory approvals and code compliance. Common practices of the older time are now not good enough. Prudence dictates that responses be based on code compliance and factory specification, no longer on ‘common practices’ and OJT prior generation practices.

      Harold my dear friend.

      I still design my own heating systems and still have no problem accepting full personal responsibility for my specifications and installations and workmanship.

      I have no idea where you came up with the 1990 cut off date but in the very early 70’s I was and still am following the NBBISME,NFPASHRAE,
      NYC BD Of standards and appeals AGA (CSA) ADA and Barrier free designs as this is what a LMP is supposed to do.

      If a heating contractor choses a product and it fails the installing contractor RIGHTFULLY so should be hung out to dry and be PERSONALLY held accountable NOT the manufacturers.

      Suppose a nut case goes to a home center buys a boiler instals it with without a low water cut off, WHY should anyone BUT the installer be responsible?

      How many Idiots and stumblebums and low life’s in the field think a hot water boiler doesn’t need this type of protection?

      How many morons saying P&H would never think of installing a spill switch?

      Harold ANYONE who installs a product should face full responsibility for their actions.

      If I buy a car and drive it through a crowd of people should the car manufacturer be held accountable Or the person who turns the key?

      If someone decides to install plastic piping under a slab and it fails THEY should face full accountabilty NO ONE else unless someone else specified this material.

      As a “professional” I not only install BUT I specify all materials for each aspect of the job and if the system I specify and install fails then I should be held 1 million percent accountable NOT the importer or the manufacturer or the store where I bought the materials.

      The heating/plumbing contractor who installs a system that is not willing to give a 20+ year FULL guarantee on labor and materials shouldn’t be dabbling in the field.

      PUT their money where their mouth is.

      Think about this I install a roof drain and I give a 100% guarantee that if this drain fails with in 25 years I will not only replace it FREE of charge BUT I will be solely responsible for any water damage below this drain even if it is a complete computer system costing several million dollars.

      Now my drains are subject to ice,rain,snow, heat and everything imaginable YET not one failure due to my mistake or improper specifications or installations.

      The high pressure steam lines I installed and serviced 1,500 PSI Superheated NOT one failure.

      So I find in very mind boggling that a “state of the art” heating system cant last over 80 years!!!!!!!

      A steam system lasting 30 years is fantastic when one considers the stress placed up it and how acidic the condensate can be plus all the “fresh” water that enters this kind of system.

      But a hydronic system failing less then 60 years old someone should be hung by their toe nails.

      The INSTALLER or the specifier should be the only ones that are the guilty parties.

      This is exactly why I specify and install only what I am willling to give a 25 + FULL guarantee on my jobs.

      I am more then willing to put up a personal written guarantee on all my jobs where I have complete control of materials and workmanship.

      The LMP should have the final say and the final responsibility NO Ifs ands or Buts.

      Like they say if you cant take the heat get out of hells kitchen.

      We have enough “victims” how about someone finaly taking FULL responsibility for their specifications and installations

    • #292075
      Harold Kestenholz
      Participant

      Many old-timers are still behind the times with advice. they neither refer to good code nor to manufacturer’s specs, but to long-ago-learned rules of thumb and work-arounds to get by. Still close to being a DIY, they get by with luck and the laissez-faire or know-nothing part-time inspectors.

      You, Sylvan, know and follow code, and then take responsibility beyond that. There lies the large gap between the guesser and the professional. Mine was not a statement saying there were NO professionals before 1990. It was an observation of what was tolerated legally.

      1990 is the approximate time the heating manufacturer engineers insisted that the technicians follow the engineers in the traditional hierarchy of engineer, master, journeyman and apprentice. The high-efficiency DOE requirements forced the manufacturers to declare requirements or the burners would not deliver the efficiency after changes by the techs in the field. DIY’s and 10-day wonders were tolerated and not challenged before that. The installer is liable, but even more so if he didn’t follow the factory instructions.

      Do you still remember the days when the boilers came with general specifications and NO installation instructions and when the service instructions were general and there was no nozzle specification on the oil boiler nameplate? The days when a tech could play with the chamber size and the oil nozzle angle and gph, then setting the fire by color? Does anyone take the liablilty for plugging orifi or changing from natural to LP or vice-versa without an approved conversion kit?

      The requirememt to diligently follow the manufacturer’s specs has spread throughout the PHVAC industry, so that old rules of practice are no longer enough to ‘get by’ and more careful litigation-awareness is unavoidable.

    • #292076
      Harold Kestenholz
      Participant

      What in the world is T H A T about? I pasted text into the box and the machine left out the word A N D to turn it into asterisks. Is there some practice to take out bad words like A N D?

    • #292077
      racefanone
      Participant

      Fourth Year,I saw you the other day,I know it was you.You still drive that same Lincoln,don’t you?Also I was told you still make $42.42 a week.Sylvan was right when he said you should have learned something from all the time you have spent in plbg.Sorry I thought you was a brain surgeon or was it a rocket scientist?

    • #292078
      fourth year
      Participant

      No, I have had about 25 other cars since then and I charge more than twice that an hour now. I suppose you make your income collecting cans and bottles from dumpsters, which can be a living if you are from a state that gives a dime deposit on each one. If you will give me your address, I can send you a few every couple of days, but you will have to sell them for scrap since there was no deposit paid on them. But that is still almost a penny a can.

    • #292079
      racefanone
      Participant

      Fourth Year,just save themt least a couple a day,I will get back to you when to send them.The price is down right now.Have you ever seen a poor “junk man”? Most of them might look a little ragged around the edges but you can’t judge a book by its cover.By the way nice answer Sylvan.

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