Sylvan HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

[MasterPlumbersKeymaster]

Sylvan. How do you weld/repair a cast iron crack

Thank you

[GuestParticipant]

Grate deal. You got a welder hwo wont tell you and Sylvan suposed to get a book for stuff he dos for 30 years. Oxyasetlene or arc welding bronze fill metl or cast Iron welding rod or black an white stick can do it.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

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In reply to message posted by Jim Hogan:
Sylvan. How do you weld/repair a cast iron crack

Thank you

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With GREAT CARE

OK now lets talk a little technical,

You failed to mention what kind of “cast Iron” or the application your going to do.

For example welding cast Iron boilers or ASNY pressure vessel should only be performed by someone with a “R” stamp rating as per ASME/NBBI codes NOT a regular plumber/welder as they maybe semi skilled even a certified welder but a lot cannot pass the R stamp requirements.

Even thought I had my certification I legally was not allowed to weld a ASME rated boilers Or pressure vessels without letting the owners know once I did weld it that this boiler was no longer considered ASME rated.

The R stamp is for your protection ENOUGH SAID

Now for the practicable aspect of welding Cast Iron

Cast Iron is not that hard to weld compared to aluminum or lead welding (Lap joints etc)

I taught several helpers how to weld no big deal.

What you must do to properly weld CI is to wire brush the area very well to remove loose particles.

Then find exactly where the crack starts and ends.

Drill a hole by both ends of the crack as this will prevent more cracking during the heating and welding process

After these holes are drilled get a grinder or file and open these cracks wider into a “V” shape

Now you have a choice of filler metals.

My personal choice of welding methods/brazing is using an Oxyacetylene torch if available.

The reason I like using a torch it is much easier to use for following reasons

Someone non skilled in welding may have a hard time comprehending the fact Cast Iron is very brittle and needs to be preheated before using an electrode (electric welding)

So I figure if your going to have to preheat why bother with an electric machine at all?

OK now for the actual filler metals.

You can use a cast Iron rod with lots of flux t BUT the filler is not going to be any stronger then the base metal and considering they both melt at the same temperature a little more skill is required, but it not impossibly to learn with a little practice.

I find using a bronze rod flux coated like the Union Carbide 25 M makes even the non skilled Billy Butt Cracks look like a hero as these rods make up for a majority of sins the stumble bums dabbling in these fields make.

The key to this higher temperature brazing is watching the flux for the proper temperature ranges. Also knowing how to read the cone shape (feather) of the torch gives a great indication of the flame temperature Max around 5,800

Adding extra flux is always advisable with pig iron welding/brazing as cast Iron has so many unknown metals in the making and it is almost impossible for the welder to know the exact composition of metals used in the manufacturer especially with the pure garbage being imported with no ASME specifications.

The flux is a great tool to the folks who bother to read AWS books and manufacturer literature.

For example, when I braze I mix my own powdered flux with water.

At 212 the water boils out and the flux turns to a white powder

Around 900 degrees it turns into a clear liquid (forget the other changes going on as this will only confuse the Stumblebums who don’t believe in “books”)

Now as these changes are happening the semi skilled will now know this is the time to test the area with the rod as it is almost at the rods melting point around 1,100-1,900 degree this flux will protect against oxidation occurring and if you have some silver present in some of the brazing rod this will add in the wetting action. BETTER FLOW

Now considering there as so called “welders out here with NO “R” stamp I think you should E Mail me before they give you erroneous advice.

The key to “welding ” is having a 6th grade reading level and knowing about preheating and AFTER welding heating as a slow cool down period to prevent stress cracks or thermo shock.

Welding is not as complicated as it may seem, trade schools have classes worth taking, UNLESS you go to college but why bother when you can hire these guys for a heck of a lot less then a “plumber”

Almost every union apprentice is taught to weld and to be a welder requires a certain mind set to want to inhale fumes all day long.

If this is for a boiler DO NOT ALLOW the stumblebums without the R stamp near your boiler.

Please E mail me so I know exactly what the application is.

Again it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to be a “welder” Certification is just practice and a good eye sight and PRACTICE.

Want a really great “Welder” find an active Navy Ship fitter or Navy repair boilerman.

By the way next time Jim please try to make the letters Bigger when you ask for me as a lot of these folks are illiterate or have what we call FLASH BURNS as they cant read your asking ME the question and they sort of forget who they are.

Notice they don’t even have a license number or a list of qualifications.

Therefore to avoid any more confusion for these poor folks who do not know who YOU are addressing contact me directly.

Told you some welders cant read “S Y L V A N” Now you see why as I became more skilled I backed away from the title “welder” or medical as brazer or lead wiper as welding is just another tool plumbers,steam fitters have been doing for years.

Shame some folks only know ONE aspect of a field
Hey Nick you read my mind Guy

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SylvanLMP

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

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In reply to message posted by Jim Hogan:
Sylvan. How do you weld/repair a cast iron crack

Thank you

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As much as it Irks me Nick is correct about “Black and White”

This is a sulfur stick we used to not only make repairs in cast iron radiators and cast Iron soil pipes Uncoated cast Iron (GRAY) it is great for bronze and bass and Muntz metals

The draw back with the black and white is it smokes like all hell and the sulfur smell burns your eyes.

I happen to carry B&W in my service vans as it helps stop leaks fast and it can take the expansion and contraction steam applications as I used it on steam traps and even a cracked motor block.

The B&W stick comes in a pack of two and it is not applied like regular filler metal as NO FLAME is to come into contact with it.

You heat surf ace with minimum preparation and get the cast Iron or steel how and then rub this black sulfur stick on and as it flows it fills large and small voids

Nick is CORRECT as this is a great product BUT I would not dare use it on gas piping even though there are gas lines made of Cast Iron still around and I would not use it on high pressure steam applications.

Nick I stand corrected B&W is a great product and saved many a home owner from the expense of a radiator replacement.

Thank you Nick for reminding me that I still learn every day on this list and am constantly reminded of applications I have forgotten over the years.

See Nick who needs “welders” when you can find the right product for the job.

Eutectic makes some welding rods that make anyone an expert over night, the same with Nassau research with the newer lower temperarture rods now being offered.

Nick YOUR are GREAT .KIS Kwwping It Simple as always and in this case it should work (Unless it is a boiler or pressure vessel)

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SylvanLMP

[GuestParticipant]

As a welding instructor at a local tech. college for 32 yrs.all I care to say is Sylvan you know enough about welding to be dangerous.Welding should be left to the pros,just like plumbing and heating.You my man are way out in left field.

[GuestParticipant]

Sylvan thank you.

I called my brother and he said you were right on with your posting and advice.

I did not want to bother him at first as he is in another state and he is an engineer and you know engineers once they get you on the phone. .

About the black and white Hydro suggested, he too was also on the mark as was your explanation as to why not only how.

The “R” stamp you mentioned was sound advice and even if you did get it out of a book it does not matter as it was correct.

Now for the application at hand.

I have an old Victorian home with one of the radiators leaking on the seam on the top as someone left the window open and the New England chill caused a hair line split.

This is a steam system so I was able to isolate this one radiator from the system.

The Black and White is the way I am going to make repairs for now and it gets me through the rest of this winter then I will just repaint this radiator silver

The idea of the drilling the split to prevent further crack length makes a lot of sense.

I read some of the postings on here and your one of the very few who actually take the time to explain not only how but why.

One local handyman suggested I use an epoxy but I did not think it would look right or hold up.

In spite of your hard nose posting I must comment you for knowing a professional job like the little things of drilling prior to heating, no one else even mentioned it.

I now have a whole new respect for the term “master plumber” as I had no idea that plumbers also weld, braze and do so many other tasks that some would consider a separate trade.

Again thank you and Nick for great advice and have a fantastic New year

Nick if you used spell check I may have taken your advice more seriously, but you did get the point across

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Oh well I guess the Oklahoma training I had finally paid off (OU)

Imagine if I too was listening strictly to a guy who spent 32 wonderful years in a school without ever having the back bone to make it on his own with skill actually used in the field.

I don’t know I guess when I welded 6″ gas lines in place in a trench I was very lucky every one of the rays did not show the large voids I must have left huh?

Welding on your back is pure luck and lots of fun

Yup I am so glad these fine semi skilled folks sure did point out the error of my welding and all the great advice they offered.

These are the reasons WHY we now use fiberglass tanks instead of the good ole semi skilled welded ones..

The college instructor sure as hell cant make a great living on their skills so here is a guy 32 years doing the same thing day after day.

WOW what a mind set to be like a factory worker on an assembly line for 32 long wasted years.

As a “plumber” I am very lucky as I can weld, braze, lead wipe, work with Pyrex piping making my own beads and yet because I am a Master of MY profession ,
I the options of hiring a welder for the day week or year hire them as a needed bases

I pity the poor slob who lacks credibility and only knows one small aspect of piping.

I like being able to dabble in welding when I feel like it Or size my own fire suppression systems.

As I no longer have the need to deal with welders telling me how many inches of weld they are going to give me I found a better way.

I hire qualified “plumbers” and tell them the virtues of using victraulic piping so welding is no longer an issue for health reasons.

Why have some dummy weld when I can offer a safe environment with no fumes or open flames no “welders pimp” to stand around as a fire watch.

a REALLY SKILLED PLUMBER can weld if he has the need YET is able to read and actually understand codes to bad a “welder” is not so lucky

Today with great epoxy’s even the auto body shops are getting away from welding.

Being skilled in many mediums is fun and highly profitable when someone is capable of doing several tasks correctly.

For the majority of applications a certified welder is way over kill so why invest all that time only learning one trade that is not only a health hazard but kind of boring day after day after day.

I call the union hall say send some welder tell this schlepper ILL give him $20 above scale BUT he has to produce.

Remember as an employer the welder still works for ME and he makes CHUMP change compared to the real Masters of the trades no getting around it .

The employee is just an employee, very replaceable unlike the boss who has the onions to make it on their own .

So as good as my welders are I can always hire one just as good or better.

The pity is these poor simple mind folks are so liminted in what they can earn compared to the ones who hire them.

My last welder thought $80,000 was fantastic salary DUH He should only know what I was making above his chump change salary

Instead of learning several marketable skills they only learn one aspect of a profession.

What happens at the age 40 when I semi retired but the poor welder starts losing his eye sight and still has 15 years ahead of him?

Why should an employer hire an older worn out welder when he can hire a young fresh out of school top notch mechanic capable of doing several tasks properly?

YUP being “just a welder” or a welding instructor is sure a good job YES SIR you guys got it made.

No way am I going to pay just a “welder” more then a highly skilled professional plumber.

Being a welder was just a very small part of being a genuine mechanic

Welding in the Navy was an education in itself for me But even as a 18 year old I knew this was not a great career move knowing one simple aspect of a trade.

Here you have a guy 32 years teaching BUT not even having the onions to go out in the real world and work for a living WHY?

What is wrong with this guys skills?

He is so ashamed of his non accomplishment like the other stumblebums they hide behind made up names and of course no license mentioned BUT they can sure pick apart others who offer an answer.

It takes a certain genius mentality to want to inhale poisonous fumes day in and day out and play with fire and molten metal YUP real BRAIN POWER HERE.

Knowing these folks always have to look to a Master of a profession to give them a job.

When I did large gas piping I hired welders rather then do it as I did it for fun and to try something new not to have to depend on something so dangerous day in and day out.

Yup being just a “plumber” is what keeps me from being bored stiff as I have to know several aspects of several “trades”

I wish to thank all you “welders” for the really professional advice you guys gave especially the school teacher who knows NOTHING about real world conditions BUT his resume said it all huh?

You guys are fantastic showing everyone the talent you posses.. Thank you again

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SylvanLMP

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

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In reply to message posted by Larry Lansing:
As a welding instructor at a local tech. college for 32 yrs.all I care to say is Sylvan you know enough about welding to be dangerous.Welding should be left to the pros,just like plumbing and heating.You my man are way out in left field.

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Professor Larry, thank you for the insight you gave everyone on my mistakes in “welding”

I am now positive from your posting that folks can honestly appreciate the knowledge you have passed onto others in the last 32 years as evidenced here.

You are a credit to all the technical staff working along side you in your local school.

I can fully appreciate your explanation of preheating and cool down periods and how to use flux as a guide to proper temperature guide lines.

The professional remarks and your guidance is why more and more folks are able to hire highly skilled mechanics with instructors such as yourself as educators.

Personally I honestly found your quoting from as AWS codes to be very refreshing as you managed to back up your claims with written facts.

Yes, 32 years as a professional instructor was self evident with your highly professional posting.

You sir are a credit to your parents and fellow professionals trying to make a better society with education.

Thank you sir and may you continue with another 32 years of YOUR teaching ability you have shown on here.

I like that you did not get too technical but the sound advice was second to none

The most important aspect of your guidance was the remarks about having a qualified fire watch standing by with the proper extinguisher and how to set the gauges same pressures and less then 15 PSI acetylene and the use of checks to prevent blow back of flames going back to the regulators. < A real Gem and a classic

I had no idea until you explained the idea of the hottest flame being at the very tip of the cone and the feathers are great for preheating.

The 3 flames you did describe did show me and everyone how important it is for someone like you to have been an instructor for 32 years.

I did not fully comprehend the lengthy article you did write with how to mix certain fluxes to get a better flow out of various rods and which diameter rod you had suggested.

About adequate ventilation according to OSHA 1910 and AWS guide lines I do understand the importance you did bring out.

But in my defense sir I did not spend 32 years in a class room setting and thus had no access to the expertise you have near you as it is so obvious by the folks you hang with as they too are professionally motivated.

Again Larry and your brother Moe I cannot thank you enough for telling me about NIOSH guide line for the proper eye protection.

You guiding me to MSA products for fume protection was a real eye opener and again Larry that in itself showed me what I am dealing with when reading your magnificent post.

Thank you sir and may you never think the 32 years you spent doing God knows what was ever wasted.

A true professional and a credit to all thats you.

I was curious about one thing if you don’t mind?

You said welding should be left to the pros

Well considering I was paid as a welder and I went to several welding schools to better myself and I even taught welding to journeymen and helpers at what point does one become a “pro”?

I always though if I was good enough to be licensed and paid as a licensed individual that in itself would at least qualify me as a professional.

But I guess your correct after I only know from actually being in real life conditions and not protected in a school environment

I guess that “welder” who said I was wrong also was your ACE student huh?

Please keep this posts coming as I enjoy learning what is really out there in America “teaching” others

[Author]

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