- This topic has 16 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 22 years, 2 months ago by
Jerry Peck.
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John Watson
I am interested to get feedback from other interested people or Plumbing/Roofing Contractors as regards to histories or horror stories following the application of this product.
For those who do not know of this product, it is a spray of polyurithane foam aprox 15-20mm thick onto (normally leaking) roofs with a thin membrane of Acrylic paint to seal the polyurithane.
This product was touted around Qld aprox 10-15 years ago, it was used by many home owners & bussiness property owners to save replacement of their rusted or leaking roof.
The results have been the degradation of the acrylic membrane through lack of mainenance or birds picking or UV degradation, allowing the polyurithane foam to soak up & retain moisture. this retention of moisture has caused the rapid corrosion of the underlying metal roof. This now leaves a very dangerous situation for Roof Plumbers or A/C mechanics who work or traverse these roofs, as they are walking on a membrane of foam with no support.
I have been carrying out the mainenance on a local Hotel for the past 16 years. This hotel was built in 1984 with the roof (Stramit SpeedDeck ZA) being installed by the Builder, the penetrations for A/C units & services by the A/C people who for whatever reason closed their doors. On the day of opening the heavens opened & the penetrations leaked like a seive. The Publican owner engaged the Foam applicator to seal the penetrations to mitigate the damage, this worked till the next season & leaks reapeared, the owner has since had ongoing resprays & reapplications to the point that this roof is stuffed in those areas, wheras the rest of the roof is in immaculate condition. this roof material is now unavailable, so the entire roof of aprox 1100m2 will have to be replaced.
I believe that this foam material is used successfully underneath roofs of commercial buildings in southern states as a insulation.
I believe the liability of property owners who have applied this product on top of their roof is now immense.
Any feedback?
Regards Bob -
I have no idea about the foam coating.
As for the roof of your pub, two things that might help the save the owner a fortune,
1/ I have seen roof repairs where the rubbish is replaced and a flashing fits over at least three pans of the new roof and three pans of the existing. This is of course monoclad/speed deck style roofing only, not custom orb.
2/ If the rest of the roof is ok, steal sheets from the edge roof towards your problem, use them to replace around aircon. Install new sheets in that area, and then use the above to seal between new and old.Now I’m in Brisbane so my summer storms are less than yours, so maybe you need five pans in each direction
The other thing is I still have
DISCLAIMERAll advice is given with-out seeing the job, and hence all advice MUST be taken as advice with limited knowledge on the exact situation. NO responsibility can or will be taken. And yes, I am a licensed Plumber and Drainer with my own business in Brisbane Australia
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This is the real Bungie? not Sylvan in disguise?
Bungie. the problem is that the sheets are 21m long, the foam was originally sprayed around the penetrations but subsequent spray repairs have meant that the sprayed area is up to 5 pans out from the support frames & from the ridge to below the a/c penetrations, these areas are up to 11m long & 4 m wide, the a/c supports are also rusting as are the a/c ducts. So you see it is a major job & there wouldnt be enough edge sheets to rob from.
My problem is that I believe that this product should be banned as the applicators are outside the QBSA (not licensed) and the products characteristics (soaks up moisture) is specificaly against the manufacturers recomendations. As I said in my earlier post there is going to be a monumental claim sooner or later, I believe it should be a class action by every property owner who has had the product applied to their premisses.
Bungie. Tutt Tutt, we get slycoons up here but the last one to hit Bowen was in 1958, you get hit every year by prety good storms yourself, your storms are of a shorter duration but are every bit as destructive & more often, Our storms we have to batten down with plenty ofXXX on hand. -
Hey Robert there is only ONE me got it GUY? I always use my real name unlike the moron stumblebums non licensed wankers that post on some lists
I am Proud that you think of me as qualified as Bungie as he is one of the very best on here without any doubt what so ever.
He is the plumber WE masters ask questions from
OK your in luck as I have seen this very same roof membrane used on the now defunct WEDTECH Building in Bronx, NY.
This was a big building used to help booster economy in the area by taking a bad area and using money to rebuild and use this company to manufacture defense equipment.
The roof had this type of “magic” self sealing description but Unbeknown to the installer sea gulls loved eating this stuff making o large holes and leaving lots of dead birdsllowing me to make me a small fortune .(over $90,000 PROFIT in 3 months)
Now here comes DA PLUMBER to find out why there is so many blocked drains especially after a cave in one section.
and feathers do not go down the dome of most drains so we have a ponding condition.
Water does weight a lot especially when idiots bums so called “plumbers” fail to install proper scupper boxes in the right locations.
Well, you are correct about this membrane holding moisture under it causing rapid and undetected roof decay and weakling of the roofing slab.
Putting hot bitumen tar or asphalt or “pitch” over this foam is a sure way to cause a fire besides mixing incompatible materials.
So I replaced the drains when the new roof was to be installed.
The best job is to remove all this material and prime the deck looking for weakened sections and re roof the entire job with Insulation if you want to save cooling/heating bills.
I would strongly suggest a built up roofing system (BUR) use 4 layers of 15# felt and “Kant strips” in the parapet corners to give a uniform 45 degree flow so as to not set up stress points CRACKING and fish mouths at the junction of the roof and walls like a bulkhead etc.
Around the vent pipe I would no longer use “Pitch pockets” as they need service and they are a problem with leaks.
For the actual parapet I use cotton impregnated membrane and “flashing cement” rather then roof cement or pitch or as felt as all these materials will run during the hotter months.
For the counter flashing NOTHING beats lead coated copper (14oz copper) as this protects the base metal from bird droppings and other acid acids/corrosives like acid rain and or coal dust etc.
For the actual roof drain Id go with either a JR. Smith 1310 or 1010 Cast Iron drain with the cast Iron dome
Or Josam 28600 series with the rough brass dome if your looking for quality.
Now if we are talking insulated roofing then I would strongly suggest a double lead 3′ 3 ‘x 4 PSF sheet lead flashing on both the deck and the insulation using a
Josam 28500 Inside Caulk or a JR. Smith cast Iron flanged extension WHEN you know the exact height of the insulation your using (no less then 2″ with these drains)The best part of these double lead set ups is in case the roof membrane should become penetrated the lower lead four pound per square foot flashing will allow water to go down the weep holes and not through the actual roof insulation.
But hey any regular “plumber” knows this stuff so why bother to reiterate it huh?
SylvanLMP -
Sylvan,I believe the people on this site would appreciate your answers if you would stop being a smart aleck.You have a terrible demeanor.No need to knock things all the time .I have been reading your posts and when your reply comes up ,I and others can predict your reply to a question will critize someone or something,is life that bad for you? Lighten up man and you will find people will respect you alot more
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Bobert. Its hard for us Ausies to be offended because even our mates put crap on us.
Sylvan. Thank you very much for your reply, however you are talking a foreign language regarding the roof coverings, there are no parapets or scuppers, this roof is a simple low pitched roof 5deg with a ridge & external gutters. The sheets are 21 metres long Zincalume & all are in absolutely imaculate condition exept the sections sprayed with this foam overlay, the A/C units are placed on stands which are supported by metal frames that penetrate the roof & are bolted to the structure, even those metal frames are rusting, if I put my foot on the foam I can hear the metal crackling under my foot, indicating that I should not put my full weight on. Have you any information regarding the product & has there been any other repercussions over in your foreign land, Foreign because its full of Foreigners & not Australians! (except a few like yourself) -
In reply to message posted by Robert Stephen Morton:
Bobert. Its hard for us Ausies to be offended because even our mates put crap on us.
Sylvan. Thank you very much for your reply, however you are talking a foreign language regarding the roof coverings, there are no parapets or scuppers, this roof is a simple low pitched roof 5deg with a ridge & external gutters. The sheets are 21 metres long Zincalume & all are in absolutely imaculate condition exept the sections sprayed with this foam overlay, the A/C units are placed on stands which are supported by metal frames that penetrate the roof & are bolted to the structure, even those metal frames are rusting, if I put my foot on the foam I can hear the metal crackling under my foot, indicating that I should not put my full weight on. Have you any information regarding the product & has there been any other repercussions over in your foreign land, Foreign because its full of Foreigners & not Australians! (except a few like yourself)
Steven, I had no intention of offending anyone just stating a fact.
There are way to many bums out there foreign and domestically bred that have no clue to what is the proper job.
Now you mentioned metal frames which support the AC units rusting plus the metal decking under foot cracking.
OK is the “metal decking” corrugated steel with a zinc coating (galvanized steel)?
The AC frames maybe uncoated mild steel setting up an electrolytic condition where dissimilar metals come in contact.
This is especially true with water present like wet membrane etc.
For example even in this country there are certain roof membranes I cannot use lead for a flashing material or even bitumen as it will react with the new polymer types of roofing single ply systems.
I would suggest using either hot applied coal tar enamel on the exposed metal with a covering of 15# fiberglass felt.
Of course the old stand by is several coats of red lead paint and an anode to take the brunt of electrolytic action happening here much like the ones found in a hot water heater or mixing ferrous and non ferrous metals
I am not familia with your term “Zincalume” but if zinc is present this could be a major factor in your deteriorating under roof metal failing.
We find the same thing here when idiots have no clue when installing piping penetrations through a corrugated galvanized decking without taking precautions.
There are many types of roofing systems on the market and lots of defunct manufacturers of materials also.
Have you thought of asking the building owner for a canceled check made out to the roofing installer then contact them.
Or check locally as to who may have carried this material.
Mixing membranes can be very risky as one will eat up the other.
Some of the oil based (tars) destroy the non petroleum types therefore you should contact the local roofing association to find the manufacturer of this foam material to find what it is compatible with.
You mentioned a ridge on this roof is it metal or wood covered with mastic?
If it is wood was this wood nailed down and allowances made for expansion and contraction as this also can cause a premature roofing failure?
The building movement can crack the membrane and allow water infiltration through fish mouths or alligatoring due o the sun effects
What kind of materials did they use around the roof penetrations as some blokes use what is commonly called a “pitch pocket”
which is nothing more then a sleeve, copper, cast iron or stainless filled with some type of bitumen that needs replenishing and if this foam is incompatable this also could be the problem.
Dont you just love these challanges?
SylvanLMP» This message has been edited by SylvanLMP on 06 December 2001
» This message has been edited by SylvanLMP on 06 December 2001
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In reply to message posted by Bobert:
Sylvan,I believe the people on this site would appreciate your answers if you would stop being a smart aleck.You have a terrible demeanor.No need to knock things all the time .I have been reading your posts and when your reply comes up ,I and others can predict your reply to a question will critize someone or something,is life that bad for you? Lighten up man and you will find people will respect you alot more
Hi Bobert You still don’t get it? I LOVE getting folks hot under the collar.
Ever see Don Rickles, Seinfield or ANYONE from NYC including Cab Drivers we love to bust idiots and brain dead folks chops.
Sarcasm is funny If you have the brains to understand it, unfortunately most idiots have no clue and this makes it even funnier
These folks have no clue to sarcasm unlike the Aussies who I find in general much smarter then Americans when it comes to common sense and training in the trades.
Ask the average red neck plummer from even New Yawk State about suds pressure zones or real plumbing codes.
Some of these folks have never attended any formal training for any of these trades.
I find the ones who write about me are the same stumblebums who would never post their real names.
Not only are they stumblebums but are cowards also.
Look at the Aussies they are proud of who they are and what they accomplished.
Bungie is one of the most professional people I have ever read and if you saw his piping arrangements it looks like a work of art.
We fought like hell on here but I honestly have nothing but the highest respect for his talents.
His private E mail with the piping job he did was pure genius at work.
Michael the Gassman gave me some really great pointers and taught me a lot.
It is of my professional opinion that the so called American craftsman is no longer trained here but imported from Canada, Ireland, Oz, South Africa, etc.
The average American Born person looking for employment in my company I wouldn’t allow to even walk a dog let alone do anything mechanical.
Look at the names they hide behind, could you imagine how ashamed they are to actually need to hide? They are either non licensed and or non skilled or both
These are the same stumblebums that dabble in “heatin” and drain cleaning with all kinds of pricing systems but have no real working knowledge to codes.
Amazing HUH.
SylvanLMP -
Sylvan. No there is no timber on this job it is metal deck suitable to 1deg pitch.
Zincalume is an Australian invention (again) it is a composite coating of zinc & aluminium, suposed to give 25 years life?» This message has been edited by Lorenzo on 04 January 2002
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Anyone interested? I will post some photos on the email listing. We have replaced a section aprox 10m 21m, its the first time in my life that any one of us had to use a pick & maddock to remove the foam so that we could then remove the roof.
Regards Bob -
In reply to message posted by Robert Stephen Morton:
I am interested to get feedback from other interested people or Plumbing/Roofing Contractors as regards to histories or horror stories following the application of this product.
For those who do not know of this product, it is a spray of polyurithane foam aprox 15-20mm thick onto (normally leaking) roofs with a thin membrane of Acrylic paint to seal the polyurithane.snip
Any feedback?
Regards Bob
I know this is an old post, but replied anyway.
The material you are describing is still in use today (unfortunately), however, I have not seen one application correctly done.
One typical installtion was like this (I still have the core samples in my office):
There were seven lifts (layers) installed one on the other, making a total combined thickness of 1 1/2″ inches. The top coating consisted of one sprayed on coating approximately 7 mils in thickness. The roofer came back and ‘re-applied the coating’, only both coating layers combined for 10 mils thickness. Several surfaces between the lifts were ‘burned’ from sunlight. The top lift was ‘burned’ to such an extent that the protective coating did not adhere to it.
These are some of the minimum installation requirements:
1) Each lift must be 1/2″ thick minimum, 3/4″ thick maximum. (Seven lifts would be 3 1/2″ thick minimum.)
This is for uplift resistance reasons. Less than 1/2″ thick lifts do not spread the uplift forces out across a large enough surface area, and greater than 3/4″ thick allows the foam to separate and shear within a single lift.
2) The previous lift is not allowed to burn (the foam is not sunlight resistant and ‘burns’ when exposed to sunlight).
The ‘burned’ surface is hard, slick and the next layer does not adhere properly to the ‘burned’ surface. A top lift with a ‘burned’ surface does not provide the required adhesion properties for the top coating.
3) The protective top coating is required to be a minimum of two layers, with each coating layer being a minimum of 20 mils thick, and the two combined coating layers being a minimum 50 mils thick (i.e., one 20 mil layer requires a 30 mil second layer).
This coating not only provides protection from sunlight (the foam is not sunlight resistant), but from physical damage. The coating thickness is CRITICAL, as are the two required coating layers.
Final analysis: The material has too many critcal application requirements to ensure proper performance that normal construction delays, workmanship errors, potential for damage from adjacent work, etc., that these roofs are not practical. This is my opinion only, based in large part on the fact that I have not seen one installed properly.
As previously stated by others, once these foam roofs leak, the water is in and under the foam. All wet foam and the foam over the wet areas must be removed before any other repairs are effected.
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Hi Jerry,
“As previously stated by others, once these foam roofs leak, the water is in and under the foam. All wet foam and the foam over the wet areas must be removed before any other repairs are effected”
There is another possible solution available.
If the decking is in good condition and they only are looking to remove trapped moisture I have found installing sheet metal vents (almost like a Swiss Cap) will work but it can take years (depending on ambient temperatures and huminidity levels to allow all the moisture to evaporate BUT it will stop blistering on BUR systems so it should work here as well.
Doing a complete rip up can really get into big bucks which may not be in the budget at this time.
Suppose they put a layer of 3/4 CDX or even wonder board with vents to help remove trapped moisture using probes or similar moisture seeking devices to find the hot spots and then just cover the existing with say and EPDM or other single ply system and treat the older lower roofing membrane as added insulation?
Sort of like a “Koppers” KMM type with an upside down insulated roof held down with river bed ballast
This could give them about 8-10 years relief time to budget for a complete rip off.
They could even if local codes permit use a very thin insulator between the new and existing roof if compatibility is a problem and rather then using a torch down type of single ply either a cold applied bitumen or asphalt or even pitch mopped applied then use gravel to keep the roof from floating away during the really hot summers
With proper pitch pockets and gravel stops and all kinds of games one can play with various types of roofing options the old roof could be left in place.
It all has to do with design weight like and usage like weather protection or promenade etc.
The one great quality no one menthioned is this system does not have fish mouths but it does seem to have its share of alligatoring.
Don’t you just love roofing terms
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Hi Jerry,
“As previously stated by others, once these foam roofs leak, the water is in and under the foam. All wet foam and the foam over the wet areas must be removed before any other repairs are effected”
There is another possible solution available.
If the decking is in good condition and they only are looking to remove trapped moisture I have found installing sheet metal vents (almost like a Swiss Cap) will work but it can take years (depending on ambient temperatures and huminidity levels to allow all the moisture to evaporate BUT it will stop blistering on BUR systems so it should work here as well.
Doing a complete rip up can really get into big bucks which may not be in the budget at this time.
Suppose they put a layer of 3/4 CDX or even wonder board with vents to help remove trapped moisture using probes or similar moisture seeking devices to find the hot spots and then just cover the existing with say and EPDM or other single ply system and treat the older lower roofing membrane as added insulation?
Sort of like a “Koppers” KMM type with an upside down insulated roof held down with river bed ballast
This could give them about 8-10 years relief time to budget for a complete rip off.
They could even if local codes permit use a very thin insulator between the new and existing roof if compatibility is a problem and rather then using a torch down type of single ply either a cold applied bitumen or asphalt or even pitch mopped applied then use gravel to keep the roof from floating away during the really hot summers
With proper pitch pockets and gravel stops and all kinds of games one can play with various types of roofing options the old roof could be left in place.
It all has to do with design weight like and usage like weather protection or promenade etc.
The one great quality no one menthioned is this system does not have fish mouths but it does seem to have its share of alligatoring.
Don’t you just love roofing terms
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Hi Sylvan,
You stated “If the decking is in good condition and they only are looking to remove trapped moisture I have found installing sheet metal vents (almost like a Swiss Cap) will work but it can take years (depending on ambient temperatures and huminidity levels to allow all the moisture to evaporate BUT it will stop blistering on BUR systems so it should work here as well.”
The above questions were referring to the foam roof systems, which are coated with a ‘special’ elastomeric coating (do not have a BUR system over them.
The foam is the roof system and needs to be replaced.
I suspect you were thinking of rigid foam insulation board, used as roof deck insulation, over which BUR systems are installed.
Even then, the wet area should be cut out and removed (including cutting out and removingthe wet foam insulation board).
If the wet area is allowed to stay and the ‘dry out takes years’, if the roof structure is single concrete tees or twin tees, there could be water related problem in the tees (spalling); if the roof structure is steel bar joists, galvanized steel decking, a gypsum or lightweight concrete deck poured in place, there could be damage to the gypsum or concrete, and most likely rusting or corrosion to the steel decking (I’ve seen this stuff almost completely rusted away); and if the roof structure is wood with wood decking, the decking will wood decay away, as will the wood trusses.
Then you added “Doing a complete rip up can really get into big bucks which may not be in the budget at this time.”
You are correct, but leaving the wet roof in place is like the adds on TV with the FRAM oil filters “You can pay me now, or pay me later.” Paying later ALWAYS costs more. Think of it as a loan with interest compounding – the interest is the damage which begins to occur, the compounding is time. The longer the interest is left to take its course, the higher the total due becomes.
Then you asked “Suppose they put a layer of 3/4 CDX or even wonder board with vents to help remove trapped moisture using probes or similar moisture seeking devices to find the hot spots and then just cover the existing with say and EPDM or other single ply system and treat the older lower roofing membrane as added insulation?”
You (not YOU in particular, but using YOU as in the plural for everyone) are not allowed to roof over or re-cover a wet roof. All moisture must first be dried out. Every code and manufacturer’s specs I read are specific on that.
You then added “This could give them about 8-10 years relief time to budget for a complete rip off.”
Well, technically they could (would be against code though), but if they did, their end cost could be considerable higher due to the long term water damage to the structure.
snip (I snipped out some of your message)
You ended with “The one great quality no one menthioned is this system does not have fish mouths but it does seem to have its share of alligatoring.”
Well I’ll be! You mean there is a ‘good quality’ to this roof system?
True, there are no fish mouths as this is spray or roller applied as a continuous roof coating, however, I’ve never seen the top protective coating applied anywhere near as thick as required, much less as thick as need for proper protection. Remember, these roofs are installed where there is required access to mechanical equipment and the roof coating does not withstand foot traffic well or dropped tools. One crack, hole, puncture, etc. and the roof is leaking.
In case you haven’t guessed, I have yet to find a redeeming quality for these foam roof systems.
Take care.
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To Jerry Peck & Silvan. This Polyurithene coating was introduced in this area in the early eighties, at the time I distinctly remember Quoting on several roofs for replacement. One was aprox $5000.00 and the other about $6000.00, I dipped out on both & for an exercise I requested a quote to coat the roof on my own home & I also calculated a costing to replace that very same roof.
The Foam roof worked out to be within $50.00 of my calculations.
The application of foam took aprox 1 day & did not invade to a great degree. The removal of the roof was invasive & took several days.
People around here rushed to get this Foam applied.
Within 1 year the repercussions started, I have now seen roofs that I wouldnt traverse.
I believe this product should never been allowed to be applied as it has a direct contribution to the degradation of the substructure & also is then dificult to remove.
I believe that if, I as a licensed Plumber/Roofer applied this product, then I would be fully responsible for any damage I caused under the Queensland Building Services Licencing system. I believe that this product has as much to answer for as Termites, as it degrades the buildings it is applied to from the top down.
Any more input would be greatly appreciated?Regards Bob
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In case you haven’t guessed, I have yet to find a redeeming quality for these foam roof systems.
Take care.
Thank you for one heck of a Quality education.
You know the education from leaning about other trades really can help doing a more professional job as you learn the short comings of various materials.
Thank you so much. Sylvan
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Agreed.
I don’t know of any redeeming quality either.
And I don’t consider ‘making money for the applicator’ to be a ‘redeeming quality’.
I’ve considered the possibility that delaying the removal of the existing roofs when coating with foam may have a ‘redeeming quality’ in that the existing roof does not go into the landfill at that time. However, after a number of years, after application of the foam, and when the roof is replaced, you now have more material, and less desireable material, going to the landfill. So, that potential ‘redeeming quality’ was also not there.
» This message has been edited by Jerry Peck on 27 February 2002
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