- This topic has 25 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 22 years, 8 months ago by
SylvanLMP.
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Aram Avakian
Testing system on modular 2-story house, shipped already sheet-rocked. No leaks at lavs, tubs, showers and places I’ve had to make connections. Afraid leak is under sheet rock somewhere. Is it possible to run a smoke test? If so, how?
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If the leak is inside the walls, you would not be able to see any smoke anyway. Use air/co2 to pressurize the system and listen for the sound of air hissing/blowing out of the pipe.
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what makes you think you have a leak ?
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Labbe:
Testing system on modular 2-story house, shipped already sheet-rocked. No leaks at lavs, tubs, showers and places I’ve had to make connections. Afraid leak is under sheet rock somewhere. Is it possible to run a smoke test? If so, how?
Never EVER, EVER test water piping with “AIR” Only a real moron/stuble bum would dare suggest this.
Water lines shall be tested with potable water and depending on local code around 11/2 times the actual working pressure
A “Smoke test” like an oil of peppermint test is used on DWV systems only
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quote:
Originally posted by fourth year:
If the leak is inside the walls, you would not be able to see any smoke anyway. Use air/co2 to pressurize the system and listen for the sound of air hissing/blowing out of the pipe.
You sir are an complete imbecile.
4th year you have to be a complete jackass to even suggest using air without knowing the piping materials or any engineering codes
I have been monitoring these boards for over 7 months but you have really given next to the worse advice up to date with that moron wallfraud close infront
No wonder less and less professionals even bother to post here.
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Sylvan Every time I look your creating a new person to come to toyr rescue.I really miss plumber Bob,but my favorite is Nick Hydro.When you created Mr. Hastings you should have given him a brain so then he would know that it’s common practice to use air to test water lines.I have never run into an inspector that would not accept an air test.These inspectors are hired to enforce the code so why would they overlook a bad test?The reason they accept an air test is because they know that it works.If something has been done for years without problems and is accepted by inspectors is it really a problem?Before you start your long and boring speach on the evils of air testing water lines,just remember that were talking about a normal house not a 20 level mansion that the great Sylvan works on.
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hehehehehehehe
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quote:
Originally posted by Wallingford Plm+Htg:
Sylvan Every time I look your creating a new person to come to toyr rescue.I really miss plumber Bob,but my favorite is Nick Hydro.When you created Mr. Hastings you should have given him a brain so then he would know that it’s common practice to use air to test water lines.I have never run into an inspector that would not accept an air test.These inspectors are hired to enforce the code so why would they overlook a bad test?The reason they accept an air test is because they know that it works.If something has been done for years without problems and is accepted by inspectors is it really a problem?Before you start your long and boring speach on the evils of air testing water lines,just remember that were talking about a normal house not a 20 level mansion that the great Sylvan works on.
Hey Fraud I love your qualifications.
Your DA Man
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Fraud you are an idiot. Why not ask a professional WHY NOT USE AIR you are really a danger to yourself
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Pneumatic tests are potentially more dangerous than hydrostatic tests. Compressed air stores a lot of energy. Water does not compress and store much energy. Stick a needle in a balloon filled with air and it explodes. Stick a needle in a balloon filled with water and a small stream of water comes out.
Testing PVC pipes with air is a game of russian roullette. PVC filled with compressed air may explode when it fails. All PVC pipe & fitting manufactures, that I know, prohibit there use with compressed air. UPC appendix I includes some installation standards for PVC and CPVC supplies and distribution which prohibit testing with air.
Phil H
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John,thanks for the great come back.I cringe when I see plastic air lines in shops and garages and do my best to get the heck out of these places as fast as I can.Ask any pipe manufacturer and they will tell you plactic pipe is not made for air.If the lines were to explode ,it would be getting hit with schrapnel.
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I doubt very much that air testing water lines is common only in my state.I have worked with a lot of master plumbers in my 15 years doing plumbing and I don’t remember any of them missing a limb because of an exploding pipe.I only use copper pipe for water lines and have never had a problem with the hundreds of tests that I have done.
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“Stick a needle in a balloon filled with air and it explodes. Stick a needle in a balloon filled with water and a small stream of water comes out.”
Not if they both have equal pressures inside the vessel. Then the force exerted against the plastic is equal in all directions in both cases, as opposed to one under say 10psi of air pressure in all directions and the other held in your hand filled with water, the pressure being exerted mostly down because of gravity pulling the water therefore the pressure inside is not equal in all directions. Sit a balloon on the ground and pressurise it with water, equal to the air filled one (not just fill it) and then stick a pin in it, then balloon will exploded. Have to admit that I didnt notice Michael Labbe say the pipe was plastic -
quote:
Originally posted by Wallingford Plm+HTG:
I doubt very much that air testing water lines is common only in my state.I have worked with a lot of master plumbers in my 15 years doing plumbing and I don’t remember any of them missing a limb because of an exploding pipe.I only use copper pipe for water lines and have never had a problem with the hundreds of tests that I have done.
Exactly FRAUD Im with you. SCREW these techinical guys, YOU GO RIGHT AHEAD and test with air.
As a matter of fact Fraud Have your entire family stand infront of you while testing with air.
Prove to these chickens how safe air testing really is PUT up or shut up I say.
YOU ARE THE KING when it comes to knowing plummmmin and heating stuff.
A better idea if 10 PSI is good TRY 1,000 PSI After all copper is rated to well over 1,000 PSI bursting pressure.
You GO FRAUD your the BEST guy.
You be da new EXPERT here. Im going to listen to your wisdom dude.
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quote:
Originally posted by bungie:
“Stick a needle in a balloon filled with air and it explodes. Stick a needle in a balloon filled with water and a small stream of water comes out.”
Not if they both have equal pressures inside the vessel. Then the force exerted against the plastic is equal in all directions in both cases, as opposed to one under say 10psi of air pressure in all directions and the other held in your hand filled with water, the pressure being exerted mostly down because of gravity pulling the water therefore the pressure inside is not equal in all directions. Sit a balloon on the ground and pressurise it with water, equal to the air filled one (not just fill it) and then stick a pin in it, then balloon will exploded. Have to admit that I didnt notice Michael Labbe say the pipe was plastic
Hi Bungie to give an idea how dangerous air testing is as part of an ASME course in Boiler inspection we took an empty 30 pound freon tank and filled it with water at slightly over 3,000 the tank split open.
We did not use air to test the tank to see how it would react as we didn’t like the idea of taking shrapnel out of our eyes.
FRAUD was ABSENT that day other wise he would have put air in it with 4th yearhelping him and they could have shown the ASME guys what a real macho guy does.
Unfortunately we did not have FRAUD as our instructor to explain why boilers that are used for hot water (hydronics) are still considered LOW PRESSURE even at 160 PSI and 250 degrees YET any steam boiler at 15 PSI is considered HIGH PRESSURE.Its all book BS any way as FRAUD will explain this later.
I am as of Monday morning firing off a letter to the American Society Of Mechanical engineers code compliance division AND the National Board of Boilers inspectors and returning all my certifications, as WALL FRAUD has proven how safe air testing really is.
As per Fraud I am going to suggest that the GAMA, NBBI, ASME, NFPA other testing procedures are all flawed as FRAUD has used air a million times and THUS this proves he is correct and everyone is wrong.
FRAUD knows heating stuff and he is a testing EXPERT.
Hydrostatic testing is for wimps and knowledgeable “plumbers” 4th year and FRAUD are the AIR testing “experts” of this country.
They have all the formal training any 1st grade apprentice could only wish for.
Ask FRAUD about his heating expertise.
He is the best of the best.
To the CIPE give it UP GUY FRAUD knows better then all your stupid book knowledge.
Books are not for real plummmmmin and heatinnnnn guys.
Why waste time actually learning about a trade ?
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quote:
Originally posted by Fredrick Hastings CIPE:
Fraud you are an idiot. Why not ask a professional WHY NOT USE AIR you are really a danger to yourself
Dear “Engineer” even though you are a professional engineer YOUR not really intuned to plumbing like these SELF TAUGHT guys are and thus I hardly think you should call these fine P&H guys names.
ILL bet you never tested piping other then “gases” with inert air testing procedures.
The problem with you kind sir is you only know from testing in a lab annd never really tried to create an explosion in a building.
Ask the P&H guy about P&H and watch the wisdom thast he spews at you.
Remember Mr. Hastings in this country not every so ccalled plumber wanted to waste their time in a real training program.
Unlike you and most engineers who went to school some of these P&H guys learned by watching other stumble bums work and THUS OTJT was established.
So Mr. Engineer unless you actually used an AIR TEST like the FRAUD has,you should just read and learn and
THANK GOD YOUR NO PLACE NEAR THIS GUY -
Sylvan you really have some issues to deal with besides plumbing.When I exposed Plumber Bob as a figment of your imagination you gave him licences in three states.When I question you on Mr Hasting’s, he comes back as an engineer.Why can’t you just post under your own name?It’s really kind of silly isn’t it?Why not be the man you say you are and fight your own battles.
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Sylvan, Sooner or later 4th year or Wallfraud will get someone hurt,it probably wont be one of them,but some unknowing bystander.Hope I am WRONG.
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quote:
Originally posted by Wallingford Plm+Htg:
Sylvan you really have some issues to deal with besides plumbing.When I exposed Plumber Bob as a figment of your imagination you gave him licences in three states.When I question you on Mr Hasting’s, he comes back as an engineer.Why can’t you just post under your own name?It’s really kind of silly isn’t it?Why not be the man you say you are and fight your own battles.
I noticed your license NUMBER and your Qualifications listed JUST like mine are.
I had no idea you were so GREAT at heating as you said.
Now FRAUD I always post using my name and GUESS what I even write articles using MY NAME ok FRAUD
You see Fraud I pick up lots of accounts on here seeking a professional opinion ( This you will never concern yourself about)
You could not pass the simplest apprentice test so you can think I am writing under various names BUT face the fact most of the REAL professionals on here KNOW what you are Have a great one FRAUD P&H
EVERYONE is wrong but you huh guy?
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Originally posted by pipepusher:
Sylvan, Sooner or later 4th year or Wallfraud will get someone hurt,it probably wont be one of them,but some unknowing bystander.Hope I am WRONG.
Please sent me a private E mail I think you would like joining a professional list to discuss real code issues.
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every day thes bungalow plumbers are coming into the city to do work they are really out of there league
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These guys are really paira noids. They thik evrybodys gotta plot aginst them. Its just plain dumm to test with air pressre. Whats so tuff about puting water in to test, thats what plumbers are for to run water, why are thy using air? They musta took a scorched air test that mad them expurts.
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an air test in the w.n.y. area is basic to 75lbs. ( oh by the way plastic is prohibited here ) at least until the new n.y.s. code comes into effect the first of the year. Then we must allow it by the new code. How the hell did they ever allow this new u.p.c. code to pass in this state and take away the jurisdiction powers of the cities, towns etc. to superceed the new min. std. garbage.
Sylvan please explain how you guys in the big city allowed this to happen.
kenny b -
Why are you so paranoid about air testing, and also why are you worrying about PVC in the subject building? PVC is not approved for indoor plumbing in most areas, and is never approved for hot water. Air is an acceptable alternative here if a water test failure could cause property damage, if there is not a source of water available, (such as a new residence in an isolated area), or if there is a danger of freezing. And no jurisdiction permits plastic piping for air lines.
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quote:
Originally posted by kenny b:
an air test in the w.n.y. area is basic to 75lbs. ( oh by the way plastic is prohibited here ) at least until the new n.y.s. code comes into effect the first of the year. Then we must allow it by the new code. How the hell did they ever allow this new u.p.c. code to pass in this state and take away the jurisdiction powers of the cities, towns etc. to superceed the new min. std. garbage.
Sylvan please explain how you guys in the big city allowed this to happen.
kenny b
Hi Kenny for over 30 years I have fought against “plastic” to be used for plumbing in NYC BUT the powers that be took the payoff and ran.
NOW the new guys are considering banning plastic indoors as the toxic fumes are the real killers to personal.Even NYC has approved some plastics for fire supression systems go figure.
Since thermoplastics are non-conductors, they are immune to the electrolytic or galvanic corrosion that attacks and often destroys metal piping materials, particularly when installed underground.
Copper conveying hot water at 180 degrees F is prone to failure if the velocity is allowed to be in excess of 2-3 FPS (feet per second).PVDF can handle high temperatures up to 280 Deg. F (137 Deg. C) and CPVC and PP can handle temperatures up to 210 Deg F (98 Deg. C).
I would love to put copper against the plastic piping in an acid system or even water with lots of minerals, like well water.
Copper is subject to erosion from lack of proper installation (no reaming) or poor design (excessive velocity). Copper can allow hydraulic shock to be even more intense than its steel or brass piping counterpart.
Copper in marine use just doesn’t hold up as well as other piping materials.
I would never think of using copper for my main sewer piping as Cast Iron has longevity and the mass to have a very quiet system and plastic waste is one of the noisiest systems imaginable.
Copper type DWV is paper thin and subject to attack from chemical action of domestic drain cleaners.
To say one type of material is better than another is absurd just like saying a jet is the best plane out there BUT I certainly would not want to do crop dusting with an F14.Manufacturers are always pushing their products as the best, BUT as Master Plumbers and Gas fitters and Drainers we must make the final decision what is the proper material and equipment for each job application and what is allowed by codes and not just price.Copper is a great material if used properly and you know its limitations.I only use plastic under duress BUT if the system requirements needed plastic for an acid waste or water conditions warranted it, I would use the proper type of plastic as required by job requirements.
Black steel is great for steam applications as the coefficient of expansion is not as great as copper and you wont get the loss of BTUs from the piping.
Black steel is also stronger and resists the possibility of having the pipe wall penetrated by a nail, like a copper gas line can, can really be dangerous.
On a steam pipe you have the real possibility of having severe burns using copper opposed to black steel if you brush against this piping. Steel can be threaded, welded and use mechanical clamps to hold much higher pressures.Some members of the population are actually allergic to copper and any water passing through this piping must be filtered.
Thankfully we Licensed plumbers do keep abreast of current code changes and new
materials and designs coming into play, especially in the heating industry with much lower hydronic temperatures and plastic being used underground in long joint free grids.The problem as I see it is many material manufacturers always tell how great their products are but never the short comings!
Respectfully, Sylvan PS Kenny come on guy join my list LOL -
quote:
Originally posted by fourth year:
Why are you so paranoid about air testing,Answer: BECAUSE I know what an incompetent can do to innocent people who let an idiot air test piping that should not be air tested.
Question: and also why are you worrying about PVC in the subject building? PVC is not approved for indoor plumbing in most areas,
Answer: OH REALLY I must tell that to every pool installation I have installed that the PVC supply and RETURN circulation and skimmer lines INSIDE the pump building is NOT legal as PER a hepers mentality
After all PVC according to you another Fraud in plumbing said it is NOT legal indoors. Hey your the “expert” who said PVC is not approved for indoor plumbing in most areas”
and is never approved for hot water.Answer and WHAT temperature are you considering HOT? DUH 280 DEGREES Or Federal codes as per NURSING homes and Child day care centers
Air is an acceptable alternative here if a water test failure could cause property damage,
Answer: No property damage ONLY the poor guy standing near the IDIOT who put the air test on
if there is not a source of water available, (such as a new residence in an isolated area), or if there is a danger of freezing.
And no jurisdiction permits plastic piping for air lines.
<< ANSWER BUT YOU use an "AIR TEST" HUH GENIOUS TSK TSK A liar with a bad memory
Answer : Oh wow AMAZING I never knew a vacuum system (AIR) was illegal using PVC I guess A vacuum system isn’t “AIR” but water HUH Helper?
I guess a FRESH AIR INLET (FAI) is not air according to YOUR mentality?
PLEASE GUY give it UP YOU will never EVER be a Qualified plumber saying things you have no idea what your talking about
Again you unknowing helper LEARN about the pros and cons of the materials your using.
HAVE you ever considered a job like stable boy as YOU will never in a thousand years know plumbing.
SCHOOL is in GUY did you know guy “PVC” has a maximum service working temperature of 140 DEGREES WAY to hot under model codes be used even for domestic hot water and child day care centers allows water temperature of only 105 degrees to be used.
So when a lack of mentality makes a Moronic statement “hot water” what basis is the dummy using as “hot”
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