- This topic has 17 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 23 years, 6 months ago by
racefanone.
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MasterPlumbers
There’s been an awful lot of talk about using lead on this site lately, so now I have a question. My bathroom has lead drain pipes for the tub, sink and toilet. The ceiling in the basement is open, but I want to finish it. Before I do, I need to resolve some issues with the plumbing.
The tub drain line is patched with duct tape. The sink drain line is patched with electrical tape. Both drain slowly. I already replaced the old drum trap with a plastic p-trap because it was cracked and leaking. Maybe I should have learned to lead wipe it… would that be an appropriate use of those skills? Unless somebody has some good reasons not to, I’ll probably replace these with plastic too.
The toilet is a similar story. It doesn’t have a flange like I’ve seen before. Instead, it has a lead, um, recepticle that’s not quite round. The toilet bolts through the floor using carriage bolts, large washers and nuts. If I finish the ceiling in the basement, I’ll have to tear it back out if I ever want, or need, to replace the toilet. I had to use two wax rings to get it to seal after someone stood on it, and I’m not sure I got it completely. Does someone make an adapter to connect a standard flange to this lead contraption? Should I have someone replace the whole system with plastic?
I know there are some strong opinions on this site. I’ve enjoyed watching (reading) things go back and forth. Please help me!
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David,Do yourself a favor and update your system before you cover everything.Lead piping was a great thing in the past,but this is the year 2001 last time I looked.Patching any lead drain may buy you some time,but if you have one hole you are sure to have more in the future.I,m sure you have listened to Sylvan rant and rave about cast iron and lead wiping,but it’s all a thing of the past.Wiping joint’s was surely an art ,but so was the work a blacksmith did,but we don’t see many of them around.Call some local plumbers and ask for estimates and you’ll see no one suggesting that you wipe these joint,s or keep the lead piping unless you call Sylvan.Some day we may all be able to watch Sylvan display his art of wiping joint,s. the “HISTORY CHANNEL” does alot of shows of this kind.
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David your home YOU want Long lasting TROUBLE FREE plumbing replace all the lead Galvanized and plastic crap with NO HUB Cast Iron and DO NOT use Fernco couplings
Wall is Not a plumber Never will be a plumber and never ever read a book about plumbing
Even Charlotte pipe who manufactures plastic piping and fitting and QUALITY Cast Iron strongly suggests CI for waste and possibly plastic for vent.
If you like a noise then PVC is what your wantif you like Quiet plumbing and safe systems use Cast Iron ..
READ GREENPEACE and see what they think about goood ole TOXIC plastic.
Hey its your home and your investment. If your hell bend on doing it CHEAP and not right then get a HOW TO book and do it in plastic yourself. NO “plumber” needed for a residencial plastic system.
Anyone can do it especially with band iron and extra couplings. Get a hacksaw ruler and send me an E mail and ILL explain how to install venting properly .
I am hoping every plastic home plumbing instalation is a DIY job.
Home Depot will sell you some great books on plastic installations
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David ,do yourself a favor and get rid of the lead.It is a thing of the past.I have been a Master plumber for 32 years.I have worked with all kinds of plumbing material and there is nothing wrong with pvc pipe for a drainage system.
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David Get rid of the lead pipe.It is a thing of the past
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David Get rid of the lead pipe.It is a thing of the past
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PCV is fine …… the main reason a plumber would suggest cast or lead, is so he can charge the bloody earth to do the job. The mark up is unbaleavable. Suspending PVC is a lot easer on the buiding too, lot less weight on the joists and bearers.
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Sylvan, Can’t believe some of the things you say.Plastics are something today that we can’t do without.C.I is good for high end homes where some noise would interfare with ones lifestyle,But not the normal everyday person.
PVC is used in all types of applications including industrial and commercial. Sylvan, wonder if
you make changes to engineers and
architect specs. -
quote:
Originally posted by bungie1:
PCV is fine …… the main reason a plumber would suggest cast or lead, is so he can charge the bloody earth to do the job. The mark up is unbaleavable. Suspending PVC is a lot easer on the buiding too, lot less weight on the joists and bearers.
Hey Bungie EDUCATION time,
Nothing personal Mate but let me explain a fact of life to you.
1- Plastic piping cost about the same as No hub Cast Iron
As gas prices soar so does the cost of plastic
2- Plastic is NOT allowed in commercial work regardless of building height WHY?
3- Plastic glues and primers are carcinogenic
4- The manufacturers of BOTH products recommend cast Iron over plastic any time conditions warrant QUALITY.
5- The uneducated can install plastic piping with great success and I am all for the home owners doing it themselves if they really want a cheap system why not do it themselves?
All they need is a little guidance as to sizing and venting which can be learned in a matter of hours reading a local code book Or in the better home centers.
ANY home owner who hires a “plumber” to install plastic is wasting their money.
6- Labor is expensive Materials are cheap Why invest good money to use inferior products?
7- Plastic is considered toxic waste when you have to get rid of it READ GREEN PEACE
8- Plastic drainage is noisy
9- Plastic will give off toxic fumes often killing the occupants long before the flames get to them.
10- Plastic has much shorter radius fittings as compared to its cast Iron counter parts
11-Plastic in humid weather or making a repair in the “wet” does not give a joint with integrity.
12- You need more supports for plastic to prevent sagging and plastic has NO tensile strength compared to Quality Cast Iron when buried under ground
13- Every No Hub clamp is a virtual clean out
14- Cast Iron is recyclable
15- Cast Iron resists abrasion much easier
16-Cast Iron may take a little longer to install BUT the actual materials cost just about the same BUT the stumble bums don’t know how to use cast Iron to its full potential.
17-If your concern is weight then why not compromise the system by using plastic for venting and leave Quality Quiet Cast Iron for water and drainage?
18- Why not read these bulletin boards and look at the huge number of STATE OF THE ART PLASTIC FAILURES in heating applications ANOTHER trade that requires no formal training or licensing in most area’s
19-Plastic piping is subject to failures if not back filled and certain house hold cleaners will destroy plastic.
20- Rodents love to sharpen their teeth on plastic
21-Ever bother to read all the precautions on plastic preparations Or are you one of the many blokes who enjoy getting a FREE HIGH.
All I know Plastic has many uses in industrial applications BUT for the Quality of life in a home we Americans are spoiled in not hearing our plumbing flush.
It doesn’t take a genius to see how far behind you Aussies are just look inside a Europeans mouth and see the missing broken teeth.
Look at the average Americans teeth and THEN look at your own in the mirror
Then consider WHO put a bloke on the moon and even brought them back.
Hey my mate think about this NYC has CAST IRON plumbing installed since the early 1800s STILL going strong.
Boston has even older working plumbing systems.
READ about the GREAT plastic under slab heating failures only 2 or 3 years old
Read the failures and the law suits and the REPIPE teams needed to replace plastic water piping failures.
How would you personally feel knowing that a family was killed during a fire because the poison/toxic smoke got to them?
Do you know a lot of fire departments will NOT enter a structure that is known to have plastic piping in case of a fire.
Hey but it is CHEAPER HUH.
Hey bloke Why don’t YOU drive a car with no air bags or seat belts or even ABS as it can save you MONEY not having a safe system
Hey drive with no doors on your car doing break neck speeds if you like noise
Today more then ever we read about NEW plumbing failures yet when a water Main or gas main ruptures in NYC it makes the head lines saying 105 year old piping system busted causing traffic snarls.
I look at the Churches in England with 1000 year old copper flashing and CAST IRON down spouts
I look at the Cast Iron roof drains in NYC where these drains are exposed to heat, acid rain, snow, Ice and last and last.
A cast Iron drain can go for UNDER $65. And it lasts over 50 YEARS.
So if it really worth using $45 plastic drain that should not be exposed to direct sun light Can become brittle in the cold loses shape in heat.
You tell me guy which is CHEAPER?
No wonder the British threw you blokes out of their country as ENGLAND loves Quality in plumbing and glassware.
May God Bless the Queen
Have a great week end MateClass is over now go out and play in the sand box
By the way a “Lead” pan lasts over 50 years and a lead FLASHING on a roof lasts over 125 years even exposed to sun, acid, heat,cold building expansion and contraction.
I still use LEAD flashing and Cast Iron with a Bronze dome But Hey I like the idea of having my work last several life times.
I love the idea of leaving a piece of me to carry on for as many centuries as possible
Ah the joys of being a REAL Craftman
PRIDE in ones work is also a thing of the past HUH? -
While PVC is user friendly, nothing is better than cast iron for waste and gutters.
One needs skill and foresight to work with material that is a not at all managable. The end result is a job that you can be proud of. Regards price- you pay for what you get
When it comes to cost of plastic as opposed to copper, plastic in GB is dearer. Plumbing in plastic is like a plate of spaghetti if it is not clipped in place at short distances. Copper runs will result in uniform bends that are pleasing to the eye.
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Sylvan, Can’t believe some of the things you say.Plastics are something today that we can’t do without.C.I is good for high end homes where some noise would interfare with ones lifestyle,But not the normal everyday person.
PVC is used in all types of applications including industrial and commercial. Sylvan, wonder if
you make changes to engineers and
architect specs.
Russ, one of my good friends just completed a home in Stamford CT a one family home for over 12 MILLION dollars.
Would you want to be the plumber who installed something that would make these folks upset?
Even here in Da Bronx I feel folks are entitled to a quiet Quality system.
You brought up a valid point and Yes I do argue with engineers and architects constantly.
EDUCATION is a marvelous thing.
For example here is a real classic.
In Riverdale DA Bronx they build several million dollar homes and the Architect specified “plastic.”
I didn’t bother to bid on these one family houses.
Just over a year and a half later after these folks moved in the plastic piping started to just come apart at the joints.
These houses where thrown up during the winter months where the glue really didn’t cure properly.
I was called in to make repairs as the original plumber only guaranteed his work for ONE YEAR which is typical and would not come back.
I have a Merlin phone system and had the doctor on one end as I called the Architect and I told the home owner I would do the talking (as usual for me)
I was lucky enough to catch this architect and I asked him Why did he use plastic as opposed to Cast Iron?
He said “cause the plumber said it was legal and faster and he could get in and get out and he could use 1 mechanic and 2 helpers”
I said I am a plumber and was called by the doctor to make repairs as this system ids falling apart?
The Architect said “So what it is over a year old not my problem”
I said But you do know even though it is code it is bare minimum He said so what I don’t live there THAT is when the doctor went off on this guy SCREAMING ^&$#@^
Later that after noon the architect called me “unscrupulous for letting the doctor hear his remarks without letting him know the client was listening”
I just couldn’t stop laughing here he said he wouldn’t use plastic in HIS HOME but it is OK for others.
Even on jobbing repairs and alterations I only use cast Iron.
This plumbing inspector said “you make the other plumber look bad because the job next door he did you used clevis hangers every 5 ft on cast Iron NH and he used band iron on each end of the 10 ft plastic”
I said NOPE He makes me look GREAT I do not make him look bad.
Could you imagine if REAL plumbers who are really qualified like in your state where there is testing of Journeymen and Masters licensing got together and said “OK we are the professionals lets try to do the best possible job we can for longevity and value for our victims”
If folks want to use garbage in their home HEY more power to them.
I think home centers are a marvelous thing like a CLINIC for the folks who could careless what doctor sees them.
I never expect to get every job I look at actually I am not even actively looking for new accounts.
I like doing plumbing/heating/fire suppression systems the way I was trained RIGHT not get in get out.
I did a few “low end jobs” and still managed to use cast Iron without going over the budget.
I did several buildings strictly in CI even though the builder said “you can get away with plastic” what does this remark tell you?
If plumbers were more concerned about quality for EVERYONE rather the being so stupid as competing with the Billy Butt Crack working out of his car trunk we all would be better off.
When I was really pissed off at one engineer I went to Merrill Lynch and saw the chief engineer at the saint Johns center in lower Manhattan and told them “IM out of here call someone else as I cant stand incompetence
This punk though he was Gods gift to plumbing and roofing.
Not only did they allow me to write the specification I also told them I would take full responsibility and even put a full 15 year Guarantee on my work and place a bond if they wanted it BUT get this guy off the job. SCRATCH one engineer.
Believe it or not we are the ones who are responsible for the job not the engineer or designers.
How many times have you recalculated the Fixture units and found them either over sized or worse under sized?
Thankfully Connecticut has some great Licensed plumbers working there unlike the anyone can be a plumber in upstate NY mentality.
Did you know NY allows ANYONE to do HEATING????
No training Or licensing requiredSo why compete against them as some of these folks have no clue to what is the right job.
One plumber on my PIPDL list just replaced a furnace upstate that was 2 YEARS OLD This alone should tell folks what is lacking in training.
David was TRAINED in NJ and doing up state New York plumbing is kids play.
Nothing pisses me off more then a plumber who knows better BUT he/she feels they have to compete with some stumble bum non professional contractor.
Thankfully I can and do pick my accounts and I turn down more work then I take on.
Being independent is a marvelous thing.
If I cant do it right why bother to do it at all?
Hey why work cheap just to keep busy and doing a lousy job to boot?
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Sylvan,You silly,silly old man.You need to accept change.You know that your alone with your old ideas.I try to remember the past just like you ,but you have to know when to let go.
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quote:
Originally posted by Wallingford Plm+Htg:
Sylvan,You silly,silly old man.You need to accept change.You know that your alone with your old ideas.I try to remember the past just like you ,but you have to know when to let go.
DP wrote on 11 March 2001 at 09:34 PM:
While PVC is user friendly, nothing is better than cast iron for waste and gutters.
One needs skill and foresight to work with material that is a not at all managable. The end result is a job that you can be proud of. Regards price- you pay for what you getWhen it comes to cost of plastic as opposed to copper, plastic in GB is dearer. Plumbing in plastic is like a plate of spaghetti if it is not clipped in place at short distances. Copper runs will result in uniform bends that are pleasing to the eye.
Wallingford Plm+Htg: < kind of lets you out HUH? You must be the BBC Silvan was talking about
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Ohhh Sylvan,
Good to see you have not changed while i have been away. Still trying to puff out your own chest and baffle them with bullshit.
1- Plastic piping cost about the same as No hub Cast Iron “labour cost is jacked up ( in so much as you take a lot more labour to install cast and lead), Retail prices …
PIPE SOIL PLN RRJ CAST IRON 100MMX900MM $95.00
PIPE D.W.V. HEAVY TYPE N PVC 100MM (MTR CUT) $7BEND CAST IRON MJ I/O 100MM 90D $115
BEND D.W.V. PLN F&F PVC 100MM 85D $2.10
As gas prices soar so does the cost of plastic2- Plastic is NOT allowed in commercial work regardless of building height WHY? “It is, but fire collars between each floor. DWV and HDPE are permitted”
3- Plastic glues and primers are carcinogenic “yup, lead kills too”
4- The manufacturers of BOTH products recommend cast Iron over plastic any time conditions
warrant QUALITY. “PVC makers tell you to use somebody else’s product?”5- The uneducated can install plastic piping with great success and I am all for the home owners
doing it themselves if they really want a cheap system why not do it themselves?All they need is a little guidance as to sizing and venting which can be learned in a matter of
hours reading a local code book Or in the better home centers.ANY home owner who hires a “plumber” to install plastic is wasting their money. “at least they will have some left to put on the lotto
“6- Labor is expensive Materials are cheap Why invest good money to use inferior products? “see #1”
7- Plastic is considered toxic waste when you have to get rid of it READ GREEN PEACE “Its Greenpeace.org one word, they all so helped stop lead in fuel, paint, and water supply pipes”
8- Plastic drainage is noisy “I dont agree ….. but”
9- Plastic will give off toxic fumes often killing the occupants long before the flames get to them. “unfortunately the burning sofa, curtains, and other plastic parts in the house will kill you long before the PVC pipe in ducts and ceiling space start to burn”
10- Plastic has much shorter radius fittings as compared to its cast Iron counter parts “Maybe over there, but from what i have seen here they are on pare with each other (might be wrong here)”
11-Plastic in humid weather or making a repair in the “wet” does not give a joint with integrity. “humid its fine (Here in Brisbane is subtropics) why work in the rain?”
12- You need more supports for plastic to prevent sagging and plastic has NO tensile strength
compared to Quality Cast Iron when buried under ground “yes it needs more support when hung”13- Every No Hub clamp is a virtual clean out “Plastic has a smooth bore, no need for cleanouts when installed correctly”
14- Cast Iron is recyclable “Trying to remember, but im sure PVC is shreded and then reused, but I cannot remember for what”
15- Cast Iron resists abrasion much easier “Any correctly installed system would be out of harms way, safe from abrasions”
16-Cast Iron may take a little longer to install BUT the actual materials cost just about the same
BUT the stumble bums don’t know how to use cast Iron to its full potential.”Two words {hourly rate}”17-If your concern is weight then why not compromise the system by using plastic for venting
and leave Quality Quiet Cast Iron for water and drainage? “Most of your venting is vertical and smaller bore, the cast would still be hung under the floor”18- Why not read these bulletin boards and look at the huge number of STATE OF THE ART
PLASTIC FAILURES in heating applications ANOTHER trade that requires no formal training or
licensing in most area’s “use any materials other than to manufactures specs, and it will fail”19-Plastic piping is subject to failures if not back filled and certain house hold cleaners will
destroy plastic. “DWV PVC is inert. If incorrectly backfilled PVC pipe will bow and belly, cast will crack and break, it has no give, letting in roots etc”20- Rodents love to sharpen their teeth on plastic “Sure do, dont they stink after getting fried eating electrical cable. Or flood the hose when eating the water supply hose to the washing machine or dishwasher”
21-Ever bother to read all the precautions on plastic preparations Or are you one of the many
blokes who enjoy getting a FREE HIGH. “No if I could just remember the sixtys I be set”Cannot be bothered to play to much with the rest, other than to say that the British have been using PVC for a couple of decades, so have a lot of yanks …. except you. And you have quote $1000 a pop in here, to repair cast iron roof drains … thought they lasted forever
You serve
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Sylvan,What does GB plumbing mean? I was confused by your last posting.
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Bungie, welcome back Mate. I still love that work of art you did with the copper piping in your home..
You honestly should consider joining the PIPDL list.
You know I have no problem reading and seriouly considering your advice as I know the training you also recieved.
Always a pleaseure.
Have a great one.Hopefully some day New York State will actually demand plumbers learn heating DUH and possibly plumbing.
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quote:
Originally posted by Wallingford Plm+Htg:
Sylvan,What does GB plumbing mean? I was confused by your last posting.
wow another genius giving a plumbing company a bad name
Wallingford Plm+Htg: OK Genius lets THINK about GB OK
Did you know USA means United States America?
Did you know USSR Means United Soviet Socialists Republic
Now Mr. “Heatin” guy lets stop and say HEY this list has folks from several countries and Great Britain maybe one of them HUH.
Wallingford HEATING face it dude your ignorant and can never ever make a pimple on a real apprentices butt. A pimple on your butt would be considered a brain tumor.
Hey listen Ignorant kid instead of trying to learn countries why not TRY to learn something about plumbing for a change? DUH that sure would be a welcome change huh?
Learn these ASMESSESTM, NBBI, API,.ASHRE, OSHA, ADA < (this be YOU)
NFPAGA, GAMA, AWWA.WS Hey “Wallingford HEATING” guy please explain what is an ideal delta? for a hydronic system
How do YOU calibrate a pneumatic, electronic Or electric controller HEATING guys know this do YOU Mr. HEATING expert.??
Up to what pressure can I use a Solco Dynamic trap? How many moving parts to this trap?
Is a Leslie valve on high pressure steam NO or NC? and WHY?
Wallford HEATING you must be familia AGA and ASME codes which one is more conservative as for relieving capacities of a T&P and WHY
Hey heating guy please tell ME what is the minimum size of the discharge capacity of a NBBI approved T&P
Hey HEATING man what is the difference between a safety and a relief valve and T&P?
Wallford “Heating” please explain what is required BY CODE (if you ever read one) for welding or brazing a boiler plate? What STAMP is required?
What is considered a high pressure hot water boiler?
Wallford YOU did say “heating” didnt you?
What is the pressure of 214 steam?
Hey heating guy I told you GB now please explain to me how do you pressure test on a boiler and what position is the KING valve during an internal inspection.
What position is the king valve on an external inspection?
You ADVERTISE HEATING please enlighten old folks as to what you know about HEATING.
Do you do a Bacharach test? How do you do it?
How do you find wet bulb and dry bulb to calculate your relative humidity as REAL HEATING guys do?
Come on Guy your UP TO DATE please explain something in the trade?
Or are you one of those guys who install a boiler that someone else told you to install and to heck with codes and proper sizing.
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Good Grief Slyvia.oops,Slyvan,get a life
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