Rough-in, Copper or plastic??

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    • #274693
      MasterPlumbers
      Keymaster

      We are about to begin the rough-in plumbing for a log cabin. The well water in the area is extremely hard and high iron content. Must use a softening system. Also, because it will be weekend home for several years, controlling pipe freezing in winter will be a chore. I have seen many newer homes in the NC area using a clear type piping similiar to Quest. Have been told this is good product and slightly forgiving if pipes were to try and freeze, as they will expand quite abit before bursting. Want to do a first-rate job, so which is best copper or the newer flexible piping in the interior walls, with PVC waste lines.

    • #290205
      SylvanLMP
      Participant

      Copper TYPE L for domestic water if this water is treated for the minerals. PVC for the waste using long radus fittings and make sure water lines are pitched for complete drain down in the freezing months.

      You may also want to check local codes and ask a local Licensed master plumbers for his/her 1st choice in that area.

    • #290206
      Wallingford Plm+Htg
      Participant

      Sylvan,why didn’t you tell this person about all the evils of pvc pipe?Why would you recommend a product that you say only “stumble bumb”plumbers would use? Oh “great one”please explain,i’m confused.

    • #290207
      SylvanLMP
      Participant

      quote:


      Originally posted by Wallingford Plm+Htg:
      Sylvan,why didn’t you tell this person about all the evils of pvc pipe?Why would you recommend a product that you say only “stumble bumb”plumbers would use? Oh “great one”please explain,i’m confused.


      It is OK I completely understand your confusion AGAIN I will say it UPSTATE NY has no codes
      or any real training in these fields. This is why I strongly suggest upstate folks USE HOME DEPOT for their plumbing needs and try to do it themselves as they cant possibly be worse then the typical upstate wanna be handyman.

      Wallingford. here is EDUCATION time just for you kid.

      Have someone READ this to you slowly so you can hopefully understand

      Since thermoplastics are nonconductors, they are immune to the electrolytic or galvanic corrosion that attacks and often destroys metal piping materials, particularly when installed underground.

      Copper conveying hot water at 180 degrees F is prone to failure if the velocity is allowed to be in excess of 2-3 FPS (feet per second).

      PVDF can handle high temperatures up to 280 Deg. F (137 Deg. C) and CPVC and PP can handle temperatures up to 210 Deg F (98 Deg. C).I would love to put copper against the plastic piping in an acid system or even water with lots of minerals, like well water.<<<<<< Hey Kid didnt the above person say HARD WATER DUH what does that mean to YOU ??

      Again you proved my point WE NEED to upgrade the NYS folks into atleast the 18th century plummmmin.

      PLEASE seriously WHY dont you pick on another trade and leave PLUMBING to PROFESSIONALS?

      continue to READ and Learn from US professionals my young TRAINEE

      Copper is subject to erosion from lack of proper installation (no reaming) or poor design (excessive velocity << DUH WALL READ THIS AGAIN
      SEE and you just thought it was shutting down a valve by a toilet wow look what your learning HUH?).

      Copper can allow hydraulic shock to be even more intense than its steel or brass piping counterpart.

      Copper in marine use just doesn’t hold up as well as other piping materials.

      I would never think of using copper for my main sewer piping as Cast Iron has longevity and the mass to have a very quiet system and plastic waste is one of the noisiest systems imaginable.

      See Wall “OPTIONS” are you learning ANYTHING?

      Copper type DWV is paper thin and subject to attack from chemical action of domestic drain cleaners and certain natural water conditions and excessive velocity

      To say one type of material is better than another is absurd HUH WALL BUT hey you have no real codes so ANYTHING goes upstate.

      Manufacturers and KNOW NOTHING So called plumbers are always pushing their products as the best, BUT as True Master Plumbers and Gas fitters and Drainers we must make the final decision what is the proper material and equipment for each job application and what is allowed by codes and not just price.

      Copper is a great material if used properly and you know its limitations.

      I only use plastic under duress BUT if the system requirements needed plastic for an acid waste or water conditions warranted it, I would use the proper type of plastic as required by job requirements and local codes.

      Black steel is great for steam applications as the coefficient of expansion is not as great as copper and you wont get the loss of BTUs from the piping..

      Black steel is also stronger and resists the possibility of having the pipe wall penetrated by a nail, like a copper/plastic gas line can, Copper/plastic can really be dangerous.

      On a steam pipe you have the real possibility of having severe burns using copper opposed to black steel if you brush against this piping.[]

      Steel can be threaded, welded and use mechanical clamps to hold much higher pressures.

      .Some members of the population are actually allergic to copper and any water passing through this piping must be filtered.

      Thankfully SOME Licensed plumbers do keep abreast of current code changes and new materials and designs coming into play, especially in the heating industry with much lower hydronic temperatures and plastic being used underground in long joint free grids. (Lots of failures any way HUMAN factor)

      The problem as I see it is many material manufacturers always tell how great their products are but never the short comings!

      Good plumbers try to use the BEST materials for the job at hand TSK TSK Kid you really need to learn the short comings of each material

      Hey Wall do you ONLY have one tool in your tool box? Channel locks ILL bet LOL and a can of glue

      The OLD MAN who loves CHOICES in the right materials

    • #290208
      Guest
      Participant

      Sylvan, I am ROTFLMAO.

      Not only did you defend yourself in your NYC sarcastic humor but you made it so simple even the Upstate out house guys could understand it.

      I once did a job in a place called Denver, NY a very tiny spot on the map and the local guys told me any pipe is legal and what is venting?

      Did you know all kidding aside some upstate farms still use out houses as the hike back to the farm house takes too long.

      An upstate plumber almost killed a dozen party goes with cross connections to a local septic system this past summer.

      You happen to be right on the money saying New York State needs to really test the folks that dabble in plumbing and have more “code enforcement officers” not just the run of the milll incompetent plumbing inspectors.

      At first I thought you were off the wall BUT when really reading your postings you are one hell of a funny knowledge guy with typical NYC sarcastic humor like Don Rickles and Allen King and even Dan the wet head.

      Please don’t get discouraged someday these kids may learn to actually do plumbing right instead of making it into a race.

      Have a great one Dude, Bob Lic Plumber NY/NJ/CT

    • #290209
      SylvanLMP
      Participant

      Thank you so much Bob seriously.

      I would deem it an honor if you would consider joining my plumbing discussion group.

      We have the most talented folks in the field on this list including PE’s and manufacturers and of course Master plumbers from several countries.

      Please send me a private E mail. This list is not only a lot of fun but highly educational in several topics even plumbing sometimes.

      We talk about everything, heating welding, politics, NRA etc a very well rounded group. Please consider my offer Thank you again. Sylvan

      The “Politically Incorrect P.D.L. is a
      community of Plumbers who disagree with some of the ideas touted on the Plumbers-L discussion list. Members here are free-thinkers who reserve the right to tell it their way. Conversations may vary, and sometimes a thick skin may be required, since those here are not afraid of telling you exactly what they think. So get ready for some great education, conversation and fun. Sylvan List Owner

    • #290210
      TryThis
      Participant

      I just finished a LOG House.
      I used copper pipe down to the basement. In the basement i also ran my mains in copper but where the joints connected to go up i used plastic to allow for the shrinkage of the logs.
      REMEMBER TO USE EXTANPION JOINTS IN YOUR DRAINAGE SYSTEM.
      A log will shrink

    • #290211
      Wallingford Plm+Htg
      Participant

      Sylvan,your the one who said you never did a house in plastic but yet you recommend it for this person.I usually don’t go around recommending products I don’t believe in,why would you?Once again you avoid the question and spit out unrelated imformation.Not useless imformation,just unrelated.This person asked about plumbing a house,not a boat.So why did you recommend doing the drains in pvc when you wouldn’t do it yourself?

    • #290212
      SylvanLMP
      Participant

      quote:


      Originally posted by Wallingford Plm+Htg:
      Sylvan,your the one who said you never did a house in plastic but yet you recommend it for this person.I usually don’t go around recommending products I don’t believe in,why would you?Once again you avoid the question and spit out unrelated imformation.Not useless imformation,just unrelated.This person asked about plumbing a house,not a boat.So why did you recommend doing the drains in pvc when you wouldn’t do it yourself?


      Sylvan,your the one who said you never did a house in plastic but yet you recommend it for this person.

      SIMPLE Read KID and learn Lad, I do not use plastic EVEN though the code does allow it for residential buildings up to 3 stories high.

      My reason is as follows NYC water will NOT destroy standard weight or extra Heavy or even NO hub piping so why not use the QUIET material that even the manufacturer of BOTH CI and plastic said use Cast Iron for Quality.

      Now for you information I have used plastic for acid systems, Vacuum and swimming pool applications SCHEDULE 80 PVC as this material resists the effects of chlorine.

      NOW KID pay attention and learn to READ as the original writer wrote “HARD MINERAL WATER”

      You kid are not a plumber by any stretch of the imagination YET, but your trying to learn and that’s a good thing.

      Hard water will erode cast Iron drainage and also cause a build up on internal piping walls and thus restrict flow after a period of time thus reducing the scouring action.

      If you had ever read a plumbing book and actually understood what you reading you would find the SMOOTH flow rates of plastic far exceed that of metal piping

      WALL your right in not giving your REAL NAME cause if I were like you in my lack of plumbing knowledge ID also be ashamed to let your victims know who you are.

      The other problem I have with plastic in general is the stumble bums who install it improperly like UPSTATE non trainables who use band iron instead of Clevis hangers located every 5 feet and clean outs at every change of direction greater then 45 Degrees.

      With NO HUB in reality every joint is now a clean out.. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ?.

      Plastic if the ambient area is humid and not properly taken into consideration will have premature joint failures.

      Using glue/primmers in a confined space is GREAT for the cancer business BUT not every plumber enjoys sniffing toxic chemicals

      In the winter plastic can become brittle and thus crack very easily .

      Plastic fittings DO NOT offer the same LONG radius as their cast Iron counter parts (Long sweeps) I am trying to keep this simple as I know you are an upstate out house plummmmmmin specialist

      BUT for the peanut crowd who have a general knowledge of plumbing they may like the idea of why I choose one material over another PERSONAL choice as job conditions dictate

      I usually don’t go around recommending products I don’t believe in, why would you?><<<<< Snip

      AGAIN Why would I recommend copper KNOWING there is a hard water condition? DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Have a Qualified apprentice explain about pH factors relating to piping failures Wall PLEASE do not say your a plumber as you make the real good guys loook bad

      Once again you avoid the question and spit out unrelated imformation. Not useless imformation,just unrelated.This person asked about plumbing a house,not a boat.So why did you recommend doing the drains in pvc when you wouldn’t do it yourself?

      Ah again your wrong PVC is GREAT for acidic waste/ swimming pool over flows/ track housing jobs as it is CHEAP and anyone with the mentality of a stone can install it.

      In 3 minutes any person can be taught to properly prepare a plastic joint

      In corrosive soils Why would I suggest cast Iron when knowing how I would have to dig out more soil and place clean fill back and tamper to grade WHEN I could use CHEAP unskilled plastic piping for these soil conditions.

      PLASTIC piping is GREAT for vent piping as it is non scaling and thus less chance of a vent failure, Plastic under a parking lot or load bearing surface not a great idea.

      Someday wall if you live to be about 124 years old YOU may learn something about “Products” and also hopefully you may realize ONE material doesn’t fit all applications.

      The remark about the ship board use was taken out of context from an article I wrote and was placed here with most of the other parts of my column.

      I think YOU should write an article on here the virtues of using ONE product and enlighten us as to the modern way you do things. I am always willing to learn

      Nothing personal BUT because you never did put your real name on here You have proven to me AGAIN the poor victims upstate have very few really qualified plumbers as most of the folks upstate are ashamed of the lack of formal plumbing/welding/heating/gasfitting education they have learned.

      Most are OJT learning from another person with OJT training .
      Not a very healthy for the average client huh?

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