- This topic has 12 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 20 years, 6 months ago by Harold Kestenholz.
6 Nov 2000 at 10:53 pm #273838MasterPlumbersKeymaster
Years ago in the UK my folks had an electric heater at the shower head that fed constant hot water within about 5 seconds of start up. Anyone know where I can find one please?
7 Nov 2000 at 2:46 am #288655SylvanLMP
Please let us BOTH KNOW
7 Nov 2000 at 6:30 am #288656fourth year
I can imagine the field day the Consumer Safety Board would have with something like that. Water and electricity in the shower with a person. If it could be wired into a GFCI, I imagine you would be resetting it constantly.
8 Nov 2000 at 9:08 pm #288657Jerry Peck
Sounds like you are referring to a point-of-use on-demand water heater which comes on when water flow starts and shuts off when water flow stops.
This would be mounted in an adjacent closet and plumbed into the shower ahead of the shower valve.
This is one site for them I found on the internet with a search for point of use water heater. Try a search for that or try searching for tankless water heater. http://www.waterheater.net/products.html
Make sure they are installed according to your local plumbing code and electrical code.
I am not endorsing these water heaters as I do not like them and have never found one installed properly. I am just answering your question.
14 Nov 2000 at 1:16 am #288658Guest
Found this site recently http://www.rayflow.com It may help you.
14 Nov 2000 at 1:24 am #288659SylvanLMP
14 Nov 2000 at 2:13 am #288660SylvanLMP
Amazing here a “helper” posts things about electricity without even KNOWING the basic of plumbing yet.
Here I am a licensed stationary engineer and LMP still trying to master the NEC with the circular mil of a wire with regard to ambient temperature with voltage drop and this helper KNOWS the word GFI and he knows it would “trip” constantly even if it were placed a distance away from the source of moisture.
I guess EVERY Shower light and UNDER WATER pool light must also trip every nano second or micro Henry.
Thankfully we have the “helpers” on here to help us with the understanding of all aspects of all the various trades.
Every day I am learning thanking this list for a fine education.
14 Nov 2000 at 2:29 am #288661SylvanLMP
erry, Have you given ANY thought to why a point of use is the best way to go?
Thinking like a highly skilled professional and not like a contractor looking to create work lets consider the following.
Point of use hot water is NOT NEW its been around for many years.
Forgetting the helpers lack of mentality and lets think like a semi mechanic.
1- Point of use LESS PIPING in the structure to go wrong. One cold water line connected very close to the source.
2- No stand by losses like happen with a gas/electric/oil heater.
3- No need for RETURN Circulation lines required
4- No chance of bacteria build up in a tank some home inspector turned down to a ridiculous low temperature of 100 degrees
5- If this one point of use goes bad the entire system is not effected
6- Less waste of precious water as the folks ONLY use the water they need as the POINT of use can be adjusted Or preset for the desired temperature
7- Less waste of copper tubing as ONE LINE is needed.
8- Less valves and other fittings are required.
YUP I SURE CAN UNDERSTAND why someone would be against efficient systems.
Us LMPs thankfully try to save our clients money and unneeded piping where applicable WITHOUT cutting corners or the publics safety
Thankfully THE LMP does protect the health of the Nation
14 Nov 2000 at 8:07 am #288662Guest
How’s your $125,000 1987 560SEL driving? Better than the cheaper 2000 S500, right?
16 Nov 2000 at 1:53 pm #288663Jerry Peck
If only you were correct all over the country. In my area (South Florida) my comment stands true.
This was my reason, as quoted from my other post, “and have never found one installed properly”.
I cannot, in good faith, recommend any product which I always find improperly installed. It may be a workmanship issue, but if the quality workmanship force is not available, do not install it.
Your chest thumping digs are coming from someone who recommended: (among other eye openers)
– 4psf lead for use in a pan where a python was to be living and students handling the python and cleaning the pan. Nothing like trying to kill them with lead poisoning.
– that no one set their water heater below 140° f in a residence. Even though it is known that hot water which is 140 degrees will produce 2nd and 3rd degree burns in less than 5 seconds, water which is 150 degrees will produce 2nd and 3rd degree burns in about 1 1/2 seconds, and water which is 160 degrees will produce 2nd and 3rd degree burns in about 1/2 second. One gets the impression (can assume?) from that post of yours that 180° f would be a good hot setting, guess it doesn’t matter that is almost instant scalding.
Your comments are typical of those from LMP’s who try to defend their territory without regard to everything else related to those decisions.
[Edited by Jerry Peck on 16 November 2000]
16 Nov 2000 at 2:18 pm #288664fourth year
I was not going to respond to your drivel, but thought better of it. Being “fourth year” in plumbing does not preclude me from being LME in electricity. For your information, GFCI’s will trip if they are 200 feet from the moisture it the ITEM they are PROTECTING is in a hazardous state. And that hazardous state may be a perception by the GFCI computer that there is more power going to the device than is being used. Nuisance trips are a fact of life with GFCI’s and that is why they are installed where they are accessible. And it is the reason why I never install several outlets on one GFCI, (thus the user does not have to hunt down the tripped one to reset it). You sound like the old man that complained that his GFCI at the lavatory kept tripping every time his wife used her hair dryer in the bathtub. And if the original post is stated correctly, they were talking about a POU heater that attached to the shower arm. In that case my original statement stands. That anything with that amperage and voltage attached where the user is in close proximity, AND in the presence of water MUST be protected by a GFCI. In addition that GFCI would have to be located where it could not be reset from the bathtub/shower. AND given the touchy nature of GFCI’s it would nuisance trip frequently. As for pools, the outlet must be a GFCI. The light is not accessible to the user and the socket is well grounded. Any other application, such as a spa or “jacuzzi” bath does need a GFCI. Stick to subjects you know, if there are any.
5 Dec 2000 at 8:02 pm #288665Guest
To answer your question:
Chronomite Laboratories, Inc. makes several sizes of Tankless Electric Water Heaters called “Instant Flow”. You can choose which is right for you by determining GPM and desired temperature rise at that flow. For product info call 1-800-447-4962(outside CA) or 1-800-447-4963 (for CA residence). I wouldn’t recommend using on every hot water fixture, but for one or two “point of use” applications, this is probably what you are looking for.
5 Dec 2000 at 8:50 pm #288666Harold Kestenholz
While Sylvan gives good reasons for the economy of a point-of-use water heater, there are IMO considerable downsides to their use.
1. While the shower has its own source, what does one do about the other fixtures? Do they each have their own point-of-use heaters? Are they by supplied by a central water heater – if so, why bother with the point-of-use unit other than to have one supply tube going to it?
Unless the electricity is produced by a dam or atomic energy, the electricity is produced by burning a fuel. the line losses transmitting the electricity are high; so most electric rates are 3 times the cost of providing the heating by burning fuels in the home. Cutting the electric bill in half by making the electric usage more efficient still makes electricity more expensive.
The typical family bill for gas or oil hot water is $250 per year. The typical electric bill for the same hot water use is $800 per year. Cutting the electric bill in half still makes it $150 per year more expensive – and the cost of installation of the point-of-use electric heater is very high.
These are reasons central, fuel-fired water heaters are still preferred in the majority. Only one, long-lasting appliance required. When an instantaneous unit is used for the whole house, the small tubes lime up in many areas and a small flow from only one tap of less than 1/2 gpm makes the unit hunt. A point-of-use heater at a sink for coffee or a small sinkful does make sense, small quantities make for small bills. Showers and washers make for large bills.
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