Built by morons

[Anonymous]

I posted a while back about the drain in my basement backing up. I had it snaked and the line was clear. I then thought it was a problem with the Townships lines. I have just been told that my home was built below grade and when the Townships lines get worked my water stays in my house instead of flowing to the main.

Who should have caught this? Is it the builders fault? Is it the Township’s inspectors error?

Is there any way to fix it? Is there a pump that can be installed to move the waste along? If I install a stand pipe, that will prevent water from backing up further but, as I see it, I won’t be able to use any water in the house or it will come out of the pipe. Yes? No?

Someone is getting sued for failure to disclose.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Hey dont feel bad a lot of builders take the LOWEST PRICE from the subcontractor bidding the jobs.

Did you bother to ask if your plumber had a Masters license?

Was the Master on the job site at all?

Luckily all is not lost you have viable options.

You can

1- Install a back water valve (check just after the main trap) to make sure city sewerage doesn’t come back to your home

The only draw back is water seeks its own level AND if the city sewer is blocked you cannot use any fixtures in your basement if applicable.

If you did use the bathroom above the check the pressure ( . 434 height) may force the check open so your sewerage is forced into the city system.

2- You can go for a great sewerage ejector like Federal or the new Bell and Gossett
effluent pump.

3- You can contact the builder/ plumber/ City and ask about the possibility of having your sewer raised slightly so the invert into the city sewer is higher the city’s sewer crown

[bungieParticipant]

Of course you can get the people who installed this, and the city inspectors who checked it, to fix the problem they created. All at their cost

[mteekParticipant]

Thanks for listing options.

I am going after the couple that sold me the home. Michigan law requires that a seller disclose any problems they know of at the closing. The form the were given specifically asks about “City Sewer System” & “Settling, flooding, drainage, structural or grading problems”

I am screwed right now, if I sell I have to disclose and won’t get anything back that I put into it. Actually, I probably wouldn’t get what I paid for it.

I like the house but, I don’t want it if I cannot finish the basement.

[fourth yearParticipant]

I have been waiting for an LMP to give a creditable answer to the man’s question. Even as a fourth year apprentice, we know that if the water backs up into the basement it is because the basement floor is too low, not because the pipe is connected into the sewer too low. So in order to correct it, they must install an ejector pump system, install an overhead sewer with a sump/ejector pump for the basement facilities, or raise the house.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Hey 4th year apprentice VERY good that you know water seeks its own level.

But did you instructor teach you about elevation and the invert of the sewer pipe?

Suppose the invert of the elevation is 22.66 AT a pitch of 5% over a hundred foot run what would be the elevation of the basement.

You can also ask your instructors about sewer lines being 40 feet below grade and the basement only being 20 ft below grade.

One of my accounts commercial has a basement and 2 sub basements YET the drainage soil and storm are all by gravity flow.

Here is a 3rd year apprentice question for you. Using the above 100 ft run and considering the above piping is extra heavy cast Iron bell and spigot and 6″ dia in normal lengths

1- How many length of pipe would be needed to do this job?

2- How many pounds of Lead would be needed

3- How many pounds of oakum?

4- Suppose it would take 5 men 19 days to do this job and after 7 days the boss takes 2 men away for another job what would be the total time to complete this job?

If you want ILL be glad to give you apprentice questions so hopefully you can pass your journeymen test with flying colors.

How much water will all this pipe hold and how much would it weigh under a no flow condition?

[Harold KestenholzParticipant]

Tha is interesting, Sylvan. Not being “in” on the technojargon of several hundred years of plumbing, I would have to guess at the meaning of “Suppose the invert of the elevation is 22.66 AT a pitch of 5% over a hundred foot run what would be the elevation of the basement.”

I would guess that flipping an elevation over would be inverting the elevation, in other words “depth.” Since you pitch downward (another guess because it is logical) 5%, the increase in depth is 5 out of 100, in this case, 5 feet. The next guess would be that the depth of the sewer main is at 27.6 feet and the end of the pitched pipe meets it at 22.6 feet above the main because 22.6 plus 5 equals 27.6. If you don’t know the trade jargon you can never be sure. Lucky that an apprentice gets a chance to practice in class.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Congratulations Harold YOU skip right through apprenticeship training and YOU are now a full fledged JOURNEYMAN “plumber”

You do not have to take the 720 hours of class room studies code / Theory Or the practical training (10,000 hrs)

I knew you were brilliant the day I read your first posting.

Again I am deeply honored that you are a member of fine standing on my plumbers discussion list. Harold You have been chosen by me to head the training on the PIPDL list and ANY help I can be to you please feel free to let me know.

[bungieParticipant]

You lot dont realy use wiped jointed cast iron pipe as a sewer run ??
If the above is yes ….. why ???

[fourth yearParticipant]

I am not some trained pony, that you can throw out a problem just so I can prove that I can do math. I suppose I could do it with pencil and paper to make it a little more interesting. I will pass my test without any coaching, thank you. By the way if the sewer is 20 feet below the basement floor, it will still back up if the sewer gets flooded 25 feet high. But this person said the city told them that their below grade floor is too close to the sewer invert elevation. And no amount of jockeying with the pipe grade is going to change that.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Bungie “Wiped” in this country refers to lead wiping. Brass to lead piping

The reason I like using lead and oakum is longevity especially on roof drain installations.

Here I install a roof drain knowing it will be exposed to summer heat, freezing winters rain and exposed to chemicals from cooling towers. Rubber over time will crack and dry out, Plastic becomes brittle and is not allowed in commercial work.

Using extra Heavy Cast Iron under ground I know I have peace of mind as far as traffic passing over this piping.

The piping I feel comfortable withHCI has a proven tract record with longevity, although expensive in initial installation I have no problem burying this product under a 4 ft slab of cement like parking garages or high rise building basement foundations.

Besides the lead joints are sound asorbers and knowing I use 1 pound of lead per per inch of joint I have a 1″ lead caulked seal that will not work its way loose.

Think about it we have Cast Iron water mains over 150 years old and sewers over 200 yeasrs old.

Boston has even older ones.

Why not stick with a proven winner?

The prices I get I can install quality materials so why look for cheap quality materials?

[GuestParticipant]

I know what wiped joints are, thats why i asked.
Why use an expensive material that is very labour intensive when there are products like Hepworth pipe (a form of earthernware but stronger) or HDPE. Both are approved or commercial work and both are a lot easier and quicker to install. Any pipe for the removal of waste water can be placed under ground and not be crushed as long as it is correctly bedded.
So it just seems strange to go that far over board.
Sylvan, thought you where going to Sydney for the Olympics ?? Nice lighting of the torch in the stadium

[Author]

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