Unlicensed work

Morton,

Your judgement is pretty harsh, but it makes sense. Still, I would beg to differ with an absolute prohibition against unlicensed “amateurs” doing their own plumbing work on their own homes.

Certainly the plumbing profession can be credited with doing at least as much as the medical profession for eliminating disease, improving the quality of life, and indeed extending the lives of modern civilized humans.

While no one would look kindly upon a BBS in which physicians advised non-physicians about how best to perform their own brain surgery, I see nothing wrong with a BBS that allows plumbers to help non-plumbers solve their own plumbing problems. After all, plumbing is not brain surgery. Most plumbing is just common sense. Reasonably intelligent and handy folk can understand the basics.

I’m not sure why there seems to be animosity toward RP on this board. He seems to offer good advice, and he freely suggests that the amateur call in a professional when the amateur is in doubt about his abilities to solve the problem. Is this not good advice?

Certainly working with gas is potentially dangerous. So is working with electrics. This does not mean that an intelligent homeowner, who knows the building codes (and more important, the reason for these codes)should be flatly prohibited from doing his own work. The oinly thing I would ask of homeowners who do such work is that they have their work inspected. After all, that’s what I have to do when I do work…

Maybe my attitude has something to do with being an American.

NtP

Nick. Point taken. After all your individual freedom is written in your Constitution.
However when some unlicensed person dabbles in, say, water Plumbing. There a posibility that they may cause a cross connection or similar & this cross connection could cause a serious harm to anyone in the community.
In Sanitary Plumbing or Drainage there is always the danger of causing serious health problems to the community.
Gas is as I said bloody dangerous stuff in the hands of the unknowing & should be rigorously checked for compliance.
When any person causes you any harm via the Plumbing services is that an infringement of your rights, after all you have paid for a safe potable supply & a healthy sewerage system & dont you believe that it should be safe to live in a community without some “we’ll call them terrorist” blowing you up because they think its their god given right to do gas work
As I said I am proud of my chosen proffession & I will not aid or abett a leyperson to carry out any unlicensed work.
Plumbing certainly is not Rocket science but it definitly is connected via the authorities health system for the benifit of the wider community. And the wider community has to be protected from themselves by regulation.
I agree that Mr RP has had a lot of flack but must point out that I have not denegrated him in any way.
As I said I am passionate about my proffession & am proud to live in a safe society.
I still have a gun in Australia as have the majority, but law abiding people dont try to hurt others in their community by misusing their constitutional rights.

Bob

Ahhhhhhhhh be it known that this subject is “hallowed” ground and like everything else in life each of us will have a seperate and differring opinion on what we see as being right or wrong or somewhere’s inbetween.
As we say down here “Each to his own”.

Morton,

I think that we agree on the salient points. We all agree that plumbing work must be done to standards of safety. I have no problem with intelligent amateurs doing their own work, and I encourage that. But I want those amateurs to understand what they are doing, to have a modicum of “manual dexterity,” and a willingness to submit their work to the very same governmental inspections that I must submit to.

Nick. I believe that the previous post about uninstalling a gas hws & installing an electric one is proof that Unlicensed persons should not be humoured.
Bob
Maybe he should go to Start- programes & uninstall. then start-run

Nick,
For the Australian comunity, there is a slight problem. In order to arrange an inspection, paperwork, signed by a duely licensed plumber must be lodged.

Therefore, unless some brain dead plumber lends his/her license, the homeowner is unable to arrange an inspection for the work that they shouldn’t be doing.

Kind regards to yourself & Art

Nick, we havn’t got a problem,Gasfitting in Australia is regulated work, the gas suppliers will “not” supply gas unless there is a gas Certificate issued by a Licensed gasfitter. This is not to say that some homeowners dont do illegal work & conect to a 9kg bottle as they do in Vietnamese communities.
No America has a problem when homeowners are allowed to carry out such a dangerous act of doing gaswork.
Bob

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In reply to message posted by Robert Stephen Morton:
Nick, we havn’t got a problem,Gasfitting in Australia is regulated work, the gas suppliers will “not” supply gas unless there is a gas Certificate issued by a Licensed gasfitter. This is not to say that some homeowners dont do illegal work & conect to a 9kg bottle as they do in Vietnamese communities.
No America has a problem when homeowners are allowed to carry out such a dangerous act of doing gaswork.
Bob

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Morton, see your quote above…I was trying to reply but somehow got screwed up by the server…Anyhow, it DOES seem you have a problem down there, in my opinion. The problem is that homeowners, who may be knowledgeable and capaple of good DIY work, are effectively precluded from doing that work. Our system is every bit as regulated as yours, but differs in this regard: a DIY homeowner may take out a building permit from the authorities and then have that work inspected and approved or disapproved. Nowhere is there a requirement that a licensed plumber in private practice sign-off on the work. The one who signs-off is the plumbing inspector, who is a licensed plumber who works for the local jurisdiction.

I think our system is more democratic and just as safe as yours.

NtP

Nick, I respect your right to your oppinion but it differs from mine, In Australia it is the Gasfitter who is totally responsible, the Gas examiner is only called in an emergency & then you are in deep shit.
I can only talk about Australian regulations & they seem to work with very little unlicensed work being carried out, it seems obvious to me that most of the posts about gasfitting emminate from USA.
When I finished Tech I was told by our tutor that we had spent 5 years of our life getting the knowledge to be licensed Gasfitters & that we should not Prostitute ourselves by selling our licenses. I have never aided a non licensed person to dabble in this most dangerous act of carrying out their own Gasfitting & never will.
No one unless they are licensed and insured are covered by insurance in Australia.
Nick – different countries have different codes – When in Rome.
Regards Bob

Morton,

I also respect you opinion on the subject of unlicensed work. We don’t have to agree on this matter. This has been a good discussion. I understand your argument and you understand mine.

This is really not a question that can be decided by “basic plumbing science,” i.e. by hydraulic engineering. It is more of a social-political issue. The fact is that most of my professional colleagues here in the US support your opinion rather than mine. They would rather that only licensed plumbers be permitted to perform work. I see some of their attitude as a reflection of economic self-interest, but it is also difficult to argue with their concerns for public safety. God knows that I have seen some horrendous amateur plumbing work (mostly in DWV, and rarely in gasfitting…I guess because most amateurs are appropriately scared of getting blown up).

The fact is that in most US jurisdictions, an amateur MAY do his own plumbing, on his own house, IF he takes out a building permit AND passes inspection by the local authority. Thus it seems that US and Australian inspectors have different functions.

The bottom line is that both of our systems work to preserve the public safety.

I’m not sure that our discussion has helped the readers of this BBS to solve any PRACTICAL problems, but it has been an interesting discussion. Maybe this discussion should be relegated to some new topical thread, such as “Plumbing/Philosophy”!

Sincerely,

NtP

Nick. exactly, this is my point. I have been arguing tha technical questions should only be put & answered by licensed persons, & that lay people should only be allowed to go on a public board, then yobbos wouldnt be able to log on as non de plumes, registered users should fully fill out their profile.
Bob