Figure 5

[Dax O’Keefe]

My local inspector wants me to use a “figure 5” instead of a 2x2x2x1 1/2 Wye for two upstairs bathtubs. What is a figure 5?

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

One less then a figure 6 and one more then a figure 4 ASK the inspector WHAT the heck he is talking about. Ask him if that is metric or not? Amazing how the unemployable “plumbing (mechanics)journeymen ” end up as inspectors

[hjParticipant]

Any plumber who has been in the business for more than six months knows what a figure 5 is. It is a shortened version of a double combination wye/eighth bend. It is normally used to connect back to back drains into a vertical line. If the two side branches are tapped then it is a figure 1. A standard double y, or double combo, has too much of a sweep to it and can cause trap siphonage.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

HJ is wrong again AS USUAL (so what else is new huh)?
“has too much of a sweep to it and can cause trap siphonage.”
The LONGER THE SWEEP (90 degree’s) the less friction loss and the smoother the flow in other words LESS CHANCE OF STOPPAGES

A 1/4 Bend is also 90 degrees BUT in most codes it is not legal on horizontal drainage as the radius is too short. BUT it can be used on storm drainage OR going from horiziontal to vertical ( some codes do say if this fitting shall be 3″ or more)

About figure “5” Again HJ makes more idiotic statements as ANYONE can throw numbers like an 800 fitting from the old central foundry was called a ( jump over) or a Boston TY which is nothing more then a combination wye 1/8 bend with a clean out on the run.

The inspector instead of throwing numbers around like some journeyman who just got his very 1st fitting book. HE/She should have given you the proper name of a fitting or at least a sketch or explained the combination of these as your NOT walking around with the local fitting book.

Every section of the country has various fittings approved for their area (LA trap, Boston TY, NYC P trap , Chicago clean out plug etc) and to throw a number around is not really going to get the point across to every place that has a drainage system.

We have folks from almost every part of the earth reading this list so if some throws a number it doesn’t explain what the inspector is trying to get across.

Like my Aussies blokes don’t use copper tubing/piping in American schedules ( K,L,M ACR,DWV,TP) etc so we have to learn to adjust our terminology accordingly.

We also give wall thickness when possible.

Everyone (in piping fields) understands degrees not everyone walks around memorizing fitting numbers. That is why they have books for every fitting so we can explain the actual fittings required. By me saying I want a 18-8 crome- Niclel Alloy steel figure 18869 Who would know I am asking for flanged tee suitable for several type of procession application?

I am still wondering what HJ’s Master plumbers license nunber is?

As he never seems to post it and thre top of this page does say “Master Plumbers” If someone says they are a “Plumber” without a Master license in several states they can be fined as saying your a plumber and not being duly licensed is considered a misdemeanor. That is why a “journeyman” cannot legally work on their own they must be in the direct employ of the more knowledgeable master plumber who has the formal education. Like a doctor as opposed to a “medical assistant”

There are many journeymen out there that are fantastic mechanics and I am sure there are bum masters also who dont keep abreast of code changes including the NFPA/OSHA/Tax codes/Plumbing codes/ADA and barrier free .

So you can understand WHY any decent mechanic/Master has no time to memorize the fitting numbers as we try to stay up to date with various codes and equipment.

Have a GREAT WEEK END

[hjParticipant]

Mr. Sylvan.
If you will check your apprentice book, you will see that using a standard Combination wye/eighth bend in a vertical line with a trap at the end of it, such as a tub or shower P trap, will create what we professional plumbers call a 3/4 “S” trap, and that will siphon every bit as good as a full “S” trap. And the figure 5 nomenclature is an industry standard and has been for decades.
along with 458, 265, 451, etc. But then you probably have never heard of these either.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

If you will check your apprentice book, you will see that using a standard Combination wye/eighth bend in a vertical line with a trap at the end of it, such as a tub or shower P trap, will create what we professional plumbers call a 3/4 “S” trap, < Snip WOW you had one heck of a stock room clerk training LOL..

These “Numbers” you can get from ANY MANUFACTURER’s catalog DUH

HJ Don’t flatter yourself YOU can and NEVER will be a “professional plumber” as you have NO LICENSE

Also you wanna be professional using short radius fittings on drainage/waste is contrary to code. This is why a Master Plumber does the ordering saying a LONG TURN TY or a long sweep or even a short sweep as a 1/4 bend is for venting.

You had better stay as the stock room journeyman ( they certainly could NEVER let you out in the field designing a pumping system as this requires knowing fixture unit demand ) as you seemed to have made a career of learning numbers of PARTS just like any good stock clerk should.

I Think home depot could use your services as a decent stock person is hard to find.

Sorry to inform you but my apprentice book only had hydrostatic formula’s relating to friction losses and calculating pump horse power and we had to study OSHA / welding / Seems I never had the time to order by the numbers. I was way to busy getting Master licenses in plumbing/fire suppression systems and stationery engineering and welding for hospital gases BUT hey you certainly know your numbers.

HJ try to realize YOU can never be a master plumber in the plumbing game YOU came in 2nd place. I have a stock room boy ordering replacement parts for my service vans, I am sure this plumbing failure can also rattle off numbers JUST LIKE YOU HUH?

I am positive that you have made a decent career working for US Master plumbers. Hj sell any more single pumps where you failed to READ the question based on fixture units rather then fitting numbers?

[GuestParticipant]

Dang it H.J. Why can’t you get it through that thick skull of yours that you can’t keep spouting things that you are reading from a book. I have suspicions that you may not be a licened plumber and I do believe the gentleman that started this list did so with the intentions of only experts in their fields writing about their expertise. You dang fool, don’t argue with the NYC dude. He knows his plumbing and He is a LMP. If people are smart, they would listen to him every time, versus, you. Some may think he does go on and on sometimes but if you really read his messages, he is trying to get every valuable point across. I wouldn’t miss his input. That fellow has taught me a lot and I’ve been an LMP for longer that an elephants trunk.
I’m sure you’re a decent lad, HJ so it would behove you to befriend our Pal, Sylvan. You could learn more skills and for God’s sake, you may learn a little humor.
Pops

[hjParticipant]

I pity anyone who knows so little that they have to use Sylvan as their Oracle. I don’t know how long your “elephant’s trunk” is but mine is 50 years long and I ran a company for the first 27 and have owned my company for the last 23. So don’t try telling me that the pompous A– Sylvan is correct when he often does not even read the question properly. Also he may have been so obnoxious that he has run off a lot of other good plumbers with his vitriole, but I am here to stay and be a voice of reason compared to his declarations that anyone who does not agree with him belongs at Home Depot. I question his expertise when he doesn’t even know the reason for a double fixture fitting and has never heard of an electronic alternator pump control.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

HJ home centers need you to put numbers on the shelfs

[GuestParticipant]

HJ. son that is not a 50 year old trunk you’re dragging behind you. Son, a trunk is in the front. Turn around HJ, your butt is dragging. What a delusion for you. My old trunk is pulling me along and your old ass drags you down.
POPS

[hjParticipant]

Pops:
Either you are Sylvan using a different name or you are also from New York.

[GuestParticipant]

No, H.J. Henry Joe, is it? I am not from NY nor am I Sylvan using another name. Son, you don’t have to necessarily be from NYC to have a sense of humor or brains.
Henry, you never did answer me about that LMP. Are you a plumber?
Why don’t you give us a little history about where you got your training. Where are you from Henry?
POPS

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Thank you Pops, You have to understand this lack of mentality in basic plumbing designs. He installs a single pump as he decides what folks can and cannot afford.

Not considering the facts of BASIC plumbing designs, as he has no conception what a fixture unit is or any other pertinent facts. He is a “guesstimator” on pump sizing and piping designs. He reminds me of a Harry Joseph that one of my employees used to tell me stories about when he moved from Chicago to NYC.

This guy Harry had a big mouth BUT was lacking in field experience and every time someone screwed it they said “Hey YOU did a Harry”

It was a standing joke rather then saying the Rube Goldberg plumbing we called it Harry’s way.

I am curious if this could be the same guy? THE world is so small WHO knows?

Even though David and Mike 14 both said the same thing. You see HJ was what we call in the plumbing union a “SHOP MAN”

This is the guy who is lacking the real power of reason to ever be allowed in the field BUT he is a union man and must be given some type of job like shop steward OR stock room to order parts.

Guys like him KNOWING they cant make it in “plumbing” opt to be the parts guy ratting off numbers but Know nothing about crown venting or WHY long radius fitting are required these poor under skilled folks end up working for many, many years for a boss who like me takes pity on them. Thank you again Pops and Mike and David and other Master plumbers who KNOW the right job. Respectfully Sylvan Shalom Pops

[hjParticipant]

Popa:
You so not deserve this information, but I will give it to you anyway. I was an apprentice in Local 130. As a seond year apprentice I was the field supervisor, (working at the trade not in a warehouse like “S” accuses. I had local plumbing inspectors in my crews and in one case had to fire one for poor workmanship. I was also the main field troubleshooter and system designer. As a fourth year apprentice I began to run the company when the boss had a heart attack and was remained in charge for 21 years. I completed the five year progaram in four years and in the fourth year I interfaced with the Cabrini street staff testing the code standards to make sure that they were adequate, and why they were necessary. I have probalby designed more “proper” duplex systems than “S” has ever seen, although by his postings, I get the impression that he has never done even one. For the last 27 years I have had my own company, so I do not think I have to answer any challenges by “S”, since his responses often are filled with data that has no relationship, either directly or indeirectly to the question. This is the last response I will give to you directly, since it is obvious that you are no more a plumber than “S” is. I wonder, are you also a roofing contractor, and all the other things “S” is rather than a plumbing contractor?

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Hey Pops you were right HE has no masters license BUT had someone pimp theirs .

[GuestParticipant]

HJ, I have to say that I envy you if you’re still doing plumbing. You see young man, I am 91 years young and while sitting here in this damn wheelchair trying to type and trying to keep my sense of humor, I find that I miss plumbing. I miss a lot of things. My old body is breaking down, but my mind still ticks like a 40 year old. It’s frustrating to have the mind tell you to do it and the body won’t mind. I suppose that it would be worse to have the mind go and the body venturing out trying to do the job. I do remember “The Plumbers Code” “Protect the health of the Nation” Dang, I probably am helping to protect it just by sitting here having fun with you and “S” and not out there trying to work on sewers and gas lines. It is amazing as we age, we find wisdom. Maybe that is one of the reasons that I find such humor and knowledge in “S” post.
Let’s be friends HJ and let the young whipersnappers have their day also.
What part of the country do you reside?
I’ve seen a lot in my short 91 years. Won’t go into all of it. Wars, depressios, etc. After it’s all said and done, I still say, “Life is worth it all”
Have a great week HJ.
POPS

[hjParticipant]

Pops:
I have no problem with that. S might even turn out to be a nice guy if he could just get the chip off his shoulder and realize that he does not know as much as he thinks he does, so he has to use vitriole and accusations to cover up his insecurity.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Pops thank you. Men like you are the back bone of this industry.

I would be honored to fly you to NYC and have you stay at the Plaza hotel or NYC Hilton as my guest for one week.

IM not kidding PLEASE send me an E mail and ILL have you hotel and plane reservations ready. If you give me your adress on the E mail ILL have everything waiting at the Air port where you are.

May God bless you old timer for everything you have given to this profession. This trade has been very, Very good to me and this small token is my way of saying THANK YOU

DO NOT consider this charity IT is my way of me giving something back to the icons of this industry.
POPS IM very serious YOUR my guest for one week in NYC all expenses
paid including a B way Show.

Respectifully SylvanLMP

[GuestParticipant]

Sylvan, That is a very thoughtful and generous offer you made me. I can’t accept it though. As I said, I am 91 years young. Have you ever heard the song “My old Kentucky Home” It’s better than pushing up daises but I don’t travel any longer. I have a nurse that lives in and takes care of me. My wife passed on many years ago so it’s nice to have a woman around.. I would ask the nurse to marry me but I don’t think she would considering she has to wipe my dribble a lot. Just humor, son. I don’t really dribble yet. Again, thank you for your most generous offer. I went to NYC years ago and it is quite a town.
POPS

[hjParticipant]

I do not have to have anyone “pimp” for me. If I were still in Illinois, I would be a LMP, but here, theye consider an LMP an anachronism, sort of like the British Monarchy, whose time has past and is no longer necessary. And since it is obvious that New York lets anyone become an LMP, I gues they are correct.

[John Aldrich1Participant]

Hey Freddie, after reading 2 pages of Sylvan and HJ hurling insults and unfounded accusations at each other, do you feel that your 2 line inquiry has been answered? I fear that it has not. I am not a plumber, so I cannot answer your question. Perhaps some other plumbers out there will answer your question without confusing the issue with all the BS. Both HJ and Sylvan appear to have a great deal of knowledge of the science, or art of plumbing, but their social, interpersonal and communication skills SUCK.

Hey Sylvan and HJ, did you not receive the e-mail message from Lorenzo warning ALL (this means you too Sylvan) respondents to inquiries to the MasterPlumbers.com Bulletin Board, about the potential of his having to edit the responses because of the type of vitriole demonstrated in this 2-page battle of words? How about just answering the question? If you disagree with anothers point of view, then just submit your point of view. Do not question the others intelligence, ability, or heritage. I personally do not think that hurling insults back and forth is informative, nor humorous.JWA

[hjParticipant]

John:
I answered the question in the second post below the question. Sylvan is the one who has a problem with it. The questioneronly has to ask any local supply house for a figure 5 and he will get the fitting I described, for the reason I specified in a subsequent answer. Sylvan’s accusations do not really bother me, I just like to keep the record straight, since I have have had to deal with vituperous journeymen since I began as an apprentice. Some of them being my father, my future wife’s uncles and her brother. But it is just my cross to bear and I have had 50 years to get used to the idea.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

PLEASE GO INTO FILTRATION BUSINESS

hj wrote on 10 August 2000 at 01:26 PM:
I do not have to have anyone “pimp” for me. If I were still in Illinois, I would be a LMP, but here, theye consider an LMP an anachronism, sort of like the British Monarchy, whose time has past and is no longer necessary

I knew you couldn’t be licensed as you do not know anything about plumbing (technically) and codes are unimportant as they are not for you. Codes are old news you dont need them.

Some folks like you end up in the filtration/heating business at time or another as NO LICENSE is required there also.

I hope with your lack of mentality YOU go to a NON licensed doctor as being licensed doesn’t mean a darn thing huh?

A license means the holder of the license took the time to TRY to learn the codes and other aspects of being a professional in the field they are working

I met “professional helpers “who had 20+ years as a schlepper BUT they at least admitted their lack of skills.

Once you finally admitted you never held a license your half way there admitting your FAILED in this profession to reach the top.

Filtration is the way to go as ANYONE can spec out a system. HJ this should be your calling.

A lot of fly by nights are peddling filters look at every home center and hardware store.
You HJ are natural as you love memorizing stock and fitting numbers.

This is NOT A put down, the filter industry could use your experience as codes have no concern to the installations of some of the newer filter installers.

The beauty about not having a license is you cannot be held criminally responsible for your mistakes as you just don’t know better.

THE most the law could get you for is practicing plumbing without a license and that’s only a misdemeanor

GO INTO FILTRATION its a wide open field with lots of self proclaimed “experts”

Being a Master Plumber is not for everyone Only those who can read and understand like code interruptions.

I have noticed the LOSERS who never held a welding license/plumbing/stationary Engineers/CPA/ Doctor/ Drivers/pilots or even hunting always had a lame excuse WHY they feel licenses should not be required.

Yes working on Gas should be uncontrolled LET anyone do it especially in hospitals with medical gases as a license is

“LMP an anachronism, sort of like the British Monarchy, whose time has past and is no longer necessary”

YUP this is how the filtration industry ended up in the great shape and reputation they have ANYONE can install and SELL filtration for EASY money no skills or license required huh?

[hjParticipant]

I did not say I did not have a license, I said they did not have a LMP classification, since that is the anacronmis. We still have to take the licensing, skills, background, and experience tests that a LMP does where they still have that group. But since you are a LMP that goes to show that it is not a very prestigious group.

[Author]

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