basement below ingress

[Anonymous]

I have inquired already about a grinder pump, but am in need of some additional information. As I said before, we are building a 2 story home with an unfinished basement that is roughed in for a full bathroom, kitchen and laundry. The builder has said that he will have to put in a grinder pump for the basement only. He has said that 100% without a doubt, the 2 top floors will not go through the pump. When you stand in the basement and look up you can see a pipe coming from the tub in the full bath on the main floor. You can follow it down the basement wall until it connects with the main drain that goes underneath the foundation in the basement. Outside, they have dug a large hole next to the block on the house. You can see the french drain and where this main drain comes out on the outside of the house. Ok, here is my question. How can the upstairs plumbing be separate if it runs down into the basement? The builder has already told us that the basement level is below the ingress of the sewer line, thus the pump. Am I missing something here, or will all of the plumbing have to go through this grinder pump? Our house has been sitting idle for about 2 weeks now and nothing has been done to anything sewer related. Thanks.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Rather then get into an argument have the builder put it in writing THEN do one of the following.

1- Get a plumber to throw dye down any upstairs drain and then look into the sump tank for the discoloration.

2- After the system is all connected have someone flush the BASEMENT toilets to see how many flushes ( gallons) it takes for the sewer ejector to activate THEN go upstairs and have someone stand by the pump as you flush the up stairs toilets at least the same number of times until either your satisfied that this toilet is indeed isolated OR until the sewerage ejector cycles on.

The second option is the easiest to do.

Good luck, AND think about a DUPLEX system (REDUNDANCY) is important in my opinion with the HIGH water alarm with bells and or lights

[hjParticipant]

The main sewer can go under the basement floor without being connected to the basement bathroom. Not connecting the basement piping is a safety device to prevent flooding in case of a city sewer backup. If it went out through the side wall of the basement, we would call it an overhead sewer system, but your system would still qualify as an overhead system as long as the only fixtures connected to it were on the upper floors and the basement went through an ejector pump. Duplex systems are too expensive and are not really required for anything less than a system the services the entire house plumbing.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Here you are building a new home with lots of great plans for the basement area.

You may have a whirlpool/Jacuzzi installed a VERY fancy wood floor kitchen possibly a play room for children or adults like a carpeted floor or fancy inlaid wood Wide screen TV etc.

Now here comes a guy like HJ telling you WHAT YOU can afford as after all a sewerage Ejector cost (just the pump) under $250 for one with a 3″ (1/2 H.P ) discharge which is plenty for bathrooms.

When I read the following “Duplex systems are too expensive and are not really required for anything less than a system the services the entire house plumbing.”

I wonder how some states GIVE licenses away.

THEY should insist on a common sense test also. He is trying to tell you that for the slight extra of having a back up system your children are protected from the very real possibility of raw sewerage coming into contact with them.

HJ thinks everyone lives in a trailer and doesn’t consider the amount of damage/mess a sewerage back up can cause in living quarters.

Ejectors ARE PRONE to stoppages when guests throw all kinds of female “cotton” things down a toilet that will clog some impellers. Also considering that laundry tubs (lint) discharge into this ejector and this being the lowest point of the drainage system silt will also collect and also the possibility of clogging the ejector.

Soap scum build up will also acclimate on the pipe discharge as well as coating the impeller over a period of time. (Pumps are known to fail on Sundays when you cant get a plumber except for triple time) SO in reality the “TOO EXPENSIVE” theory is thrown out the window when you consider ONE service call off hours COST MORE then the ejector.

This save a penny mentality will not make your insurance claims any easier when your flooring becomes saturated.

Labor is expensive materials are cheap.

The cost of installing one or two pumps is literally nothing when you consider the fact
you have peace of mind, WHEN the pump does stop you still have a back up for laundry/toilets etc.

Folks like HJ are the SAME mentality that drive without a SPARE tire as it cost too much and how often do you get a flat?

All I know is I repair more pumping systems then CHANGE tires BUT I still have a full sized spare EVEN though it cost extra.

Here you are building a not so cheap home and here someone ALREADY is telling you to cut corners amazing.

Think about it some folks use their homes as an office space WOULD you like to visit an office that had a sign on the door “cant use toilet as the pump is down and we are waiting a few days for a replacement”

I am only offering you a viable option as I would suggest to anyone who has to rely on something mechanical for raw sewerage removal. Redundancy cannot hurt compared to the mess and expense you will have when this one pump system fails. AND IT WILL over time as everything mechanical does.

Let guys like HJ fly in single engine plane as it cost more for twin engines.

You home is an investment dont cut corners. Good luck.

[Ken ZoellerParticipant]

Lynn
I work for a pump manufacture and have been applying and designing sewage and grinder pumps for 30+ years. The thing you may be missing is the location of the toilet relative to the pipe going out under the foundation. The pipe for the toilet must go through the floor and run to the pipe under the foundation at 1/4 inch per foot. 10ft away = 2.5 inches & 20 ft away = 5 inches + the vertical amount to get the fittings to tie in to the out flow drain. This could put the basement facilities below the outlet. Let’s address one pump verse 2 pumps without insulting anyone. As a manufacture I would love to sell you 2 pumps. If the whole house was on the pumps then 2 would be necessary. Since only the basement is on the pump system, then one would do just fine but put a high water alarm in the sealed sewage basin. This will tell the users to not use the basement facilities until the problem is fixed. I think your family could walk up stairs for a day or two if you educate them. There are pumps on the market that will pump 2″ solids. the largest opening in a domestic toilet that I am aware of is 1 7/8 inches. With a 2 inch vortex pump(any thing 2″ will pass under the impeller and not jam it) anything that will go through the toilet will go through the pump. Go to http://WWW.zoeller.com to see 2 inch vortex pumps and alarms system and basin packages. I would like to sell you a grinder but they cost 2 to 3 times as much as 2″ solid handling pumps. A grinder and/or a duplex system would be over kill unless you plan to have this space as a rental space in the future. When it goes to commercial property duplex would make since. good luck. [email protected]

[John Aldrich1Participant]

Lynn, I heartily endorse the response submitted by Ken Zoeller, and am impressed by the way he gave his excellent advise. Ken skillfully avoided hurling insults at other respondents, and still provided advise on which you can depend. My recommendation is to take hj’s, and Ken’s advise.

My Grampa once told me, “Not everyone likes the same thing. If they did, they would all be after Gramma.” JWA

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Ken (Zoller) your point is well taken about “This will tell the users to not use the basement facilities until the problem is fixed. I think your family could walk up stairs for a day or two if you educate them”

A day or two HUH even on a FRI night or during a long holiday week end?? WHY should they HAVE TO WAIT if it is not necessary? SERVICE counts (redundency)

Now for your information I only used Zoller pumps until I found another company called Steven’s Pump.

Steven’s pump Cost about the same as yours BUT they give a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, longer warranty.

Jim Steven’s really knows his business when it comes to designing a real work horse. The problems I have encountered with Zoller is the cast Iron body doesn’t seem to hold up as well as the stainless steel counter parts Steven’s offers PLUS Steven’s are field repairable.

The Grindex series that I did suggest had one great write up in ASSE journal even if they should encounter SLURRY (read pump & systems rotating equipment world wide users of pumping systems)
Why not go to the PUMP USERS EXPO in April 2000 (hear the end users problems) and WHY back up is so important EVEN in “homes”

I used to buy most Zoller pumps from Lexington supply until Steven came along.

You see Ken your “Zoller” M-2-67 cost about $225 for a 1/2 HP ejector 1 year guarantee AND the Stevens 1/2 horse power comes WITH a 3 FULL year Guarantee cost about the same with approximately the same pump curves and Both require only 110 V

By you saying that People have to just learn to live around it is NO EXCUSE for this to happen with redundancy. Federal pumps (Also a fantastic line) do make duplex system for the home owners that would like peace of mind.

EVEN if the initial cost were $800 MORE for all the bells and whistles and the added convince of a duplex why settle for less ESPECIALLY on a new home where you know from the GET GO your locked into a pumping system. Why inconvenience the lower floor dwellers to MISERY waiting for some company to say “Sorry the ejector YOU have is only good for ONE year”

I like have redundancy in peoples homes with lead and lag pumps. My clients are not going to like hearing that I have to WAIT for the manufacturer to DECIDE if I am covered or not. Here with a back up $225 ejector I by them time to see if the manufacturer will make good OR if they go to Steven’s where they can get a 2 or 3 year warrantee on the pump all the while maintaining SERVICE which is the name of the game PLUMBING SERVICE is the key to keeping good accounts happy.

Why should my commercial customers be treated BETTER then my residential ones? Aren’t both entitled to know about protection if one (pump should )goes down?

The builder is digging a pit NOW how much more can it cost to enlarge it slightly for a much better system THAT unfortunately these folks have to live with.

I am sure if you had the inconvenience of NOT using YOUR living space for a few days all for the lack of a CHEAP PRICE $225 PUMP you would be quite upset also.

Hey to each his own.

Thankfully Federal pumps do show all the great safety devices that can be used for the non Cave dwelling public. Amazing I JUST give the folks an option LET them decide how much inconvenience is worth to them. Have a great one

[davidParticipant]

Hello Lynn

I have been reading about your home and the pumping questions that have been asked and talked about here. I have been in the Plumbing and Heating field for over 20 years and I will try to give you advise as I would with one of my customers

Pump: Zoeller is a good pump no doubt. But I was introduced to the Stevens pump and have found them to be top of the line. Stevens would be my first choice based on the quality and warranty.

Duplex or not to Duplex ?

Get the best that you can afford. Two might be considered over kill by some but I would think of it as a cheap insurance policy. I can tell you that things have a funny way of failing when it is a holiday weekend and you have a house full of guest. The cost of a weekend call for a plumber would most likely exceed the cost of a second pump now.

Where does all of your plumbing go ??? Who knows .. If you can take some pictures and email them to me I will be more then pleased to look at them and see if I can help. If not try the dye test like Sylvan wrote about.

The one advice I always give people who are building a new home is.

Buy the best you can as you are building something that should last for many many years.

I hope this helps you

David

[davidParticipant]

Hello Lynn

I have been reading about your home and the pumping questions that have been asked and talked about here. I have been in the Plumbing and Heating field for over 20 years and I will try to give you advise as I would with one of my customers

Pump: Zoeller is a good pump no doubt. But I was introduced to the Stevens pump and have found them to be top of the line. Stevens would be my first choice based on the quality and warranty.

Duplex or not to Duplex ?

Get the best that you can afford. Two might be considered over kill by some but I would think of it as a cheap insurance policy. I can tell you that things have a funny way of failing when it is a holiday weekend and you have a house full of guest. The cost of a weekend call for a plumber would most likely exceed the cost of a second pump now.

Where does all of your plumbing go ??? Who knows .. If you can take some pictures and email them to me I will be more then pleased to look at them and see if I can help. If not try the dye test like Sylvan wrote about.

The one advice I always give people who are building a new home is.

Buy the best you can as you are building something that should last for many many years.

I hope this helps you

David

[GuestParticipant]

Having been in this field for over 25 years I have seen many ejector pump failures. The difference in cost between the single and the duplex pumps does not even compare to the cost of an emergency service call. The final choice in this matter is still with the homeowner. My recommecomendation would be to go with the duplex pumps, wired for alternate use.
If you do decide to go with a single pump, be ABSOLUTELY sure to get the high water alarm. Do not accept the inexpensive “flood alarms.” These do not alert you to a problem until there is water already on the floor. At this point the damage is done.

Remember that it is much easier to install a top of the line system now, than to try to re-hab a problem system later.

Best of luck with your new house.

[hjParticipant]

Sylvan:
Please tell me where you purchase duplex systems with the larger sump basin, cover with access holes, full alternating and overide electronics, additional piping, and two pumps for $800.00 more than a simplex pump. I can buy a single pump and basin for about $500.00, a duplex system typically costs $3,000.00. And it requires an entire closet to accomodate a 36″ minimum basin with all the controls and discharge piping. As Ken said, people can use one of the upstairs toilets until the sytem is restored. They do it when a toilet plugs up on a weekend or three day holiday, and they do not want to pay overtime to have it fixed.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Mike 14 and David thank you both.

HJ AGAIN your talking money NOT safety OR health or inconvenience.

OK HJ School is in session so pay attention as I will ask you questions AFTER class OK?

NOT to take anything away from Zoller (fine quality pumps I must add) BUT I also like to use Federal pumps as they are local.

NOW HJ PAY ATTENTION OK Federal HEAVY DUTY VSP Sump pump simplex
(ONE PUMP HJ) requires a basin of a minimum of 30″ dia (round) A DUPLEX (means TWO HJ) requires a round basin of 36″ NO BIG DEAL HUH?

A simplex (1) square is 30″ 30″ A DUPLEX (2) requires a square basin of 36″ 36″

Now for YOUR education HJ

A sewerage ejector/sump pump is sized by fixture units converted to GPM for ease of this discussion.

In all honesty we are talking VOLUME so why cant we make the “basin” in ANY shape or depth? HUH? VOLUME doesnt care does it ?

You can extend the IMPELLER shaft from 3 feet to over 12 feet if you had to.

Federal also makes the “Master – Flush” in BOTH simplex and duplex
with capacity varying from 25 GPM @ 24 ft head to 100 GPM @ a 10 ft head.
(head = height)

The Master flush comes with a 3″ vent and a hand hole (clean out) and a 4″ caulked inlet.

You see HJ You still think people don’t mind having a basement flooded with fecal matter or having the family living below the gravity system take a hit every time the single application goes down.

You stated people can USE THE OTHER TOILET but suppose this TWO family home goes down SHOULD the up stairs (gravity system) folks leave their door open so the ones without a toilet, kitchen sink, laundry room, bath / shower / diswasher etc. can come and go ALL night to the usable appartmen (week end) long? So they can save a few dollars?

NOT everyone works in Getto/moble homes HJ some of us do work in ONE family homes with over 10 BATHROOMS while others work in homes with only one bathroom.

This being the case for the ONE FAMILY living at the mercy of the ejector, don’t YOU think they have a RIGHT to have the use of the fixtures they are paying rent for?

HJ THINK about it a NEW Zoller Ejector (pump) cost me about $225 the EXTRA sized sump pit EVEN if it did cost a $1,000 (actually it is MUCH LESS) so your talking $1225 PLUS extra piping of a few feet

SO WHAT IF it cost a total of $2 or 3 THOUSAND MORE over the life time of the house YOUR TALKING PENNIES.. Once you take into consideration your LOWER insurance premiums. I know if I were a tenant without the use of an apartment due to a flood of RAW sewerage the land lord would NOT only pay for the “Toxic” clean up YES HJ FECAL MATER IS NOW considered TOXIC due to Aids and other water borne disease Hepatitis B for example so the Clean up costs PLUS the hotel room your paying for as these poor tenants stay at a hotel until the carpets are cleaned / replaced. The wood floor buckling cause of the flood damage BUT HEY GUY you did SAVE EM money on the short term investment and in your mind THAT IS ALL THAT COUNTS.

You make my legal expert job so easy going against guys who NEVER think about the real facts of life in plumbing and the real dangers folks face when exposed to the various water borne disease in SEWERAGE especially young children BUT hey YOU did SAVE EM BUNDLE HUH and this is ALL THAT matters.

Forget the plumbers motto THAT “The plumber protects the health of the nation” By the way HJ READ the American society of Sanitary Engineers (ASSE) latest finding about sewerage. Their motto “PREVENTION RATHER THEN CURE”

This is NOT out house plummmmmin Guy. These people are spending a fortune to have their HOME built and depend on the plumber to do the RIGHT THING.

They didnt go a home center like some moron looking for any advice they could get so they wouldnt have to seek a professionals help. THEY came here to get some very valid questions answered.

You remind me of that “Clown” who asked a stock room clerk about his plumbing as HE a felt HE could save money by seeking UNPROFESSIONAL advice.

For God’s sake man THINK!!! These folks are building a BRAND NEW 2 FAMILY HOME and have very serious concerns, NO PLACE did anyone BUT you say CUT corners.

Possibly the in-laws or their children may move in WHY should they or anyone be subjected to a sewerage night mare if it is at all avoidable?

I would LOVE to see how YOU LIVE HJ and that other guy who seeks CHEAP advice where his home is concerned.

This is NOT over sell this is just plain being a true professional explaining the virtues of a back up.

How much is your children’s safety WORTH? Give me a price?
Read Plumbing Mechanical and Read Dans columns about telling clients WHAT they can afford according to YOUR Judgment.

I work in ONE family homes costing OVER 11 MILLION dollars and some homes work NOTHING but the plot of land they are on YET I never would assume what either one of these clients could afford,

They hired my company cause they wanted the work performed RIGHT not cheap

I tell my accounts over the phone if your price shopping CALL others and we will both be happy . If YOU want it performed to the best of our ability then you came to the right place.

For your information HJ I did one stoppage in a building for OVER $1,600 for 4 hours work (mechanic & helper) THINK about it if these folks have a major stoppage WHAT will it cost them?
Have a great week end.

THINK about it Floods COST MONEY.

[hjParticipant]

If Lorenzo had not asked me not to call you an idiot, I would call you an idiot. There is nothing in the original question to imply that this is an independent apartment. This is most likely a single family home and the downstairs rest room is used by the same family. And if the basement is floating in fecal matter, it is because someone insisted on flushing the toilets even though the high water alarm told them not to. If it is the only disposal facility for a family, then they need a duplex system with the water supply controlled by the high water water alarm so that no water is available if power fails or both pumps go down. In addition, a duplex system’s cost is only slightly related to the price of the second pump and the larger basin, (although a simplex system only needs an 18″ 30″ basin), the larger cost is the electronic alternator, emergency override, high water alarm, and water cut-off circuit. But maybe you just put in two float operated pumps and let it go at that.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

HJ not to call you any names as your still trying to learn something about being a “plumber” and hopefully some day you may even pass a master plumbers written exam BUT you must learn to READ THE QUESTION

READ this

“Lynn c wrote on 12 July 2000 at 11:16 PM:
I have inquired already about a grinder pump, but am in need of some additional information. As I said before, we are building a 2 story home with an unfinished basement that is roughed in for a full bathroom, kitchen and laundry. The builder has said that he will have to put in a grinder pump for the basement only.”

What didn’t YOU understand about the above paragraph? Did I lose you with posting a break down of the fixture units Lynn said she was going to have in the “BASEMENT APARTMENT” ( kitchen, Laundry room
FULL bathroom to me means an APARTMENT)

I honestly think HJ your trying to learn the wrong profession as “plumbing” can be complicated and not everyone can have the mental capacity to get formal training in this field. Why dont you seriously consider working in a home center and THEN you can give advice to folks who are looking for a CHEAP job but not the right one.

Your STILL not getting the point of a DUPLEX system. I suggest you contact a local union and have a 2nd year apprentice explain the idea behind a back up system.ONE that knows code and can read and write ( they can draw you pictures)

Ever Mr. Ken Zoller contacted me (private E mail) with new insight about this added protection.

HJ Why dont you just sit back read and learn from REAL plumbers?
I realize now your have this mental handicap in understanding the PROPER JOB

Please HJ have someone READ the original posting to you.

By the way I have this gut feeling your not even a licensed Journeyman LET alone a Master plumber. Knowing your NOT even close to passing any masters test You shouldnt even be involved in designs as YOUR NOT QUALIFIED and you are just a semi mechanic at best. What is your Master Plumbers license? What formal training have you had towards your Masters License?

HJ do yourself a big favor stay in your league as your in way over your head in this discussion.

YOU seriously should consider a home center position. This is not a put down I just cannot see you giving such bad advice to folks seeking out EXPERTS (licensed and insured contractors)Im sorry guy but in my humble opinion YOU could never pass a masters exam written or practical. So call me all the names you would like as I know how frustrating it has to be for you defending a position that has no merit. Why not give advice on repair but please keep away from the really complicated aspects of this trade.

You have the home center mentality

Rmember being a Qualified Master Plumber is not for everyone.

Someone has to do the grunt work so be proud of the little knowledge you do have.

Have a great week end.

[lynn cParticipant]

Well, to set the record straight, this basement will be finished by us so that my parents can live in it full time. Our upstairs plumbing has been corrected and now runs out gravity wise and the pump has been installed in the basement. We have no idea what type of pump it is (size, brand, alarm, etc.)and I don’t really believe that the builder cares since he is not finishing the basement himself. Without more arguments, I would like to know how we can make the best of this situation now. Can we add to the pump to make it more sufficient? How can we tell if it has a high water alarm on it? I believe the brand is a Zoeller, but do not know the model number, etc.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Hi Lynn, Interesting posts WE created huh?

When you originally posted a kitchen, full bathroom and laundry room you left little doubt this was to be a separate apartment to any real plumber would have know this by just the fixture units involved.

This is why I try to tell folks insist on ONLY having the Master plumber on the job site with a journeyman as his helper.

OK now to give you some insight as to why the builder OR his plumber should have installed the duplex sized sump.

If it is at all possible try to contact the installing plumber BEFORE the finished floors are installed and ask him/her to install a sump capable of handling two ejectors.

The reasoning is volume. For an ejector to work properly they need a certain area (volume) to work and trying to up grade after the fact is over 3 times more expensive then doing it on initial installation.

After the fact you have to enlarge the sump and that normally means discarding the one you have as it just isn’t big enough.

Q- Can we add to the pump to make it more sufficient?

A- This has nothing to do with efficiency it has to do with redundancy (Protection) if the one pump fails and the inconvenience of waiting for a replacement or repair could be days.

Q- How can we tell if it has a high water alarm on it?

A- Shut off just the pump switch and flush the toilet several times and listen for the alarms. The installer should show you this prior to the sign off.

If he/she was foolish to have installed the high water alarm on the same disconnect switch, then have the plumber/electrican just either disconnect the float OR UN plug the pump. fill the sump and hopefully the alarm will sound

The Zoller ejectors normally have a double plug one for the actual pump the other for the (mercury switch) mercury is no longer used BUT they still call it a mercury activated float switch.
By unplugging this double switch and letting the sump fill you should hear an alarm if one was provided.

Now you can do one of several things.

1- Contact the builder and let him know that you WERE considering him/her to do the other work BUT if he /she had cut corners you no longer can trust their decisions

2- Contact the builders plumber directly and say “Lets make a deal” Ask the Licensed plumbing contractor “How much for you to up grade my system NOW so later when If [you) should give you the other work he/you will have less of a down time as the ruffling and duplex system will already be installed.

3- Ask the plumber directly NOW before any more work progresses HOW MUCH to up grade DO NOT ask the journeyman (mechanic) as they have no idea ASK the Master him/herself

Zoller is a decent quality pump and All the ones I did install over the last 32 years have outlasted their warrantee (1 year)

I feel bad as to the arguing that went on here and this hopefully did not cause you a delay in your decision making.

There should never have been any doubt on the system you needed for this application. The problem with a pump manufacturer getting involved in this is Ken felt by specifying 2 pumps the home owner would feel he is out to sell more than the clients need

By having a NON Licensed plumber (non Master) giving an opinion is fool hardy as they just don’t know any better and that is why most states will not allow a journeyman to do any plumbing unless they are in direct supervision/employ of a master plumber. It is like a doctor and his “medical assistant” the Journeyman is just not qualified to make design decisions.

If you have an architect have him/her direct the builder to do the right thing (DUPLEX)

Please feel free to contact me any time regarding this and please PLEASE let me know how it turns out. If you want I can talk to Ken Zoller or you can and have him give you specifications for your systems to help give you some relief if the one pump does goes down. Good Luck Please dont be a stranger lol

To Mike 14 and David Thank you guys for KNOWING your jobs not afraid to agree with me

[lynn cParticipant]

Two more questions – 1) How can we test this pump before closing if we do not have any fixtures in the basement? If I am understanding correctly, we really have no way to know if the pump is working until we finish the basement and install toilets, sinks, etc. 2) Since the pump is already installed and the basement floor poured (all the plumbing is finished as we are set to close Aug. 17th), how/can we at this point go back and make the system a duplex system?

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Q-1 How can we test this pump before closing if we do not have any fixtures in the basement? If I am understanding correctly, we really have no way to know if the pump is working until we finish the basement and install toilets, sinks, etc.

A- You can test this system by running a garden hose to the sump and let it run until either the pump comes on OR the high water alarm (If applicable) comes on

Q-2 how/can we at this point go back and make the system a duplex system?

A- If the contractors had the common decency to have installed a larger sump then needed you maybe able to add a second pump for back up.

If this sump is just sized enough for one pump Your locked in as the only alternative is to chop open the cement slab disconnect all the drain/waste and soil lines and install a larger sump in the same place re connecting all the lines you had disconnected (SEE HJ DOUBLE THE WORK) NOW tell me which way was cheaper? By having the duplex you always HAD the option of adding more fixtures now this option is most lightly no longer viable on a singular pump.

Lynn I strongly suggest you contact Zoller pump and ask the “experts” opinion on which pump they feel would be advantageous for this application as you certainly do not want your parents flooded out. They may even suggest a pump with a with more horse power IF the noise factor isn’t a concern (a duplex you could play games with)

Zoller may suggest a pump with a 1750 RPM or a 1150 RPM or even a 870 RPM to keep vibration to a minimum.
This should be very interesting and educational for everyone concerned. PLEASE Keep us posted.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Here Lynn please check this out

http://www.masterplumbers.com/plumbing/plumbviews/pump.html

We made the BIG TIME

[hjParticipant]

The pump will have its own float switch to operate it. To add a high water alarm, you need a separate flaot switch and then you will connect that in series with an alarm bell and/or light so that when the water rises, if the pump does not operate, then the added switch will operate the alarm device(s). Of course, neither the pump or the alarm will operate if the power to the house fails, so if that happens, do not use the downstairs plumbing.

[hjParticipant]

The pump will have its own float switch to operate it. To add a high water alarm, you need a separate flaot switch and then you will connect that in series with an alarm bell and/or light so that when the water rises, if the pump does not operate, then the added switch will operate the alarm device(s). Of course, neither the pump or the alarm will operate if the power to the house fails, so if that happens, do not use the downstairs plumbing.

[hjParticipant]

The pump will have its own float switch to operate it. To add a high water alarm, you need a separate flaot switch and then you will connect that in series with an alarm bell and/or light so that when the water rises, if the pump does not operate, then the added switch will operate the alarm device(s). Of course, neither the pump or the alarm will operate if the power to the house fails, so if that happens, do not use the downstairs plumbing.

[Ken ZoellerParticipant]

Lynn
There should be an alarm “box” on the wall with a cord going to the sealed basin. There should be a cord seal around the cord(s) coming out of the basin lid. If the pump is an automatic unit it should have 2 cords coming through the cord seal. One for the pump and one for the alarm. If the pump unit it is non-auto with a omni-directional float switch with a piggy back plug at the electrical outlet, there will be 3 cords coming through the basin lid–One for the pump, one for the float switch, and one for the alarm switch. It would be best to find out before the unit is used than after. It will be a much nicer job to add the alarm now than later( the water will be clean and not “Toxic”). You could unplug the pump and add water to see if the alarm would ring and at what level in the basin. It could be set at the wrong level and flood your basement anyway. Some really good plumbers know how to run pipe but do not know a lot about electricity. Remove the cord seal around the pump cord and, with a flash light, take a look in the basin and watch the water rise to the alarm switch if present. There should be a gate valve above the check valve for ease of service. The check valve should be in the line to keep the pump from cycling too often and to keep any back ups from the sewer from flooding the basin and your basement. [email protected]

[GuestParticipant]

Sylvan I cannot believe how rude and condescending you can be. I think that it is nice for people to want to help. Perhaps the suggestions may not be the best ones in your book but at least he was trying to help. I think it would have been much better just to say….”I think I may have a better idea”……you obviously know what you are talking about but don’t put others down for trying to be kind.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Ken since you did mention the “check valve” don’t you think you should have also mentioned the drilling the 3/32 in. hole on the discharge piping BELOW to check valve to prevent a vacuum correct?

I think Ken your going to confuse Lynn with too much facts that the installing plumber should have performed during normal installation.

This should NOT be the home owners problem to know the check valve should be a soft seated type installed on a 45 degree ideally with a rising (rated) gate valve on either side of the check with a valued by pass, and all valves SHALL BE FULL FLOW and all screw fitting are to be cast iron galvanized drainage with a 1/4″ tapering thread conforming to ASTM, etc., etc.

ALL Lynn wants is a SYSTEM that WORKS and in case one of your pumps FAIL (which it will) that the place is not flooded out.

I honestly don’t think Lynn cares to take a crash course in pump curves or cavitation and pump head Vs efficiency or the various types of seals friction losses.

What I gather from all the postings is Lynn is trying to figure out the best course of action for allowing a person (like HJ) dabbling on her drainage system with his single pump approach and NOW has to think about the very real possibility of this ONE pump failing.

I am sure that we could over sell Lynn into a battery operated pump in time of black out OR a battery operated float alarm system which are very cheap (under $50)

We should concentrate on KISS (Keep It Simple Silly)

HJ please try to keep out of this as you did ENOUGH misreading damage TSK, TSK, TSK, thinking it was ONLY a ONE family design .

H J don’t try to cover your butt now with more erroneous information. You did enough damage with your simpleton (simplex) one pump idea’s.

Ken you must have some type of battery back up system if NOT ILL list some pump manufacturers that sell not only battery back up pumps BUT battery operated alarms.

Mc Donnell Miller makes all kinds of water alarm devices that do not depend on any pump to activate them.

For example, the Liquid Level Controls single and multiple probe conductance actuated controllers which can use the various sewerage level to trigger various warning systems.

For example a 2 level control would 1st signal a light and the second could sound off an alarm

A 3 level control could also send the signal to the upper apartment in case someone in the lower apartment didn’t hear or see the other warning devices

A 125 volt 4 level controller could be used to energize a smaller BACK UP Zoller $225 sewerage ejector that normally wouldn’t come into play. BUT could be tested Periodically for insurance/peace of mind purposes.

Of course they could use a 3 level or a 2 lever 125 volt with either a manual or automatic reset to operate the BACK UP slightly under sized ejector.

The installing plumber/electrican could look into a these probes with lengths from 12″ to 72 “all Teflon coated to prevent fouling.

The McDonnell Miller PCH/PCL-3,4 series cover a lot of mistakes from incompetent journeymen as this gives the victims another chance to make the system operable in a safe manner with a back up ejector PLUS the option for alarms either line or low voltage.

This job is getting very complicated for no valid reason IF the duplex was installed originally. Seems the CHEAP price is no longer a valid argument But Hey HJ did get his input in.

Lynn there are several options still available. If possible try to get the model number of the pump and pot (dimensions) from the installer so we are not taking a shot in the dark.

There is still the possibility of installing another pump wired to the MM controller and having a 2″ discharge instead of the normal 3″ FOR a temporally basis.

All is not lost as some schools of thought are a 2″ discharge line is better for scouring action BUT then we have to take the velocity into consideration.

Lynn Zoller does make a sewerage ejector that cost about $225 that sits on the bottom of the sump on cast iron legs with either a 2″ or 3″ discharge.

By having this 2nd ejector connected electrically to a MULTI PROBE conductance controller you have the alarm system needed PLUS the back up pump located on one of the upper probes located HIGHER then the existing single ejector.

The only thing is the cover of this single pump design will have to have a 2″ hole drilled in it with a grommet for water/odor proofing and another hole for the electrical plug of the new back up pump AND a tapping made for the liquid level controllers.

Hopefully Ken Zoller can make a cover for you, after all he is the pumping expert and it maybe this is his sump so he should have the dimensions. Hey Ken can you help Lynn out here for good client relations?

This will work NOT as neat as the OEM duplex BUT it is a viable option. Now your not locked into the same builder or plumbing contractor.

PLEASE keep me posted.
Ken Thank you again for all the help you can render

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

The reason I may sound “rude and condescending” is simple, People spend lots of money to have the perfect home. Homes do not come cheap and to have someone think about cutting corners for NO VALID REASON irks the heck out of me.

To become a “Master Plumber” I had to complete a five year apprenticeship with OJT and class room studies of over 720 hours.

I also had to work under the direct employ under a master plumber ANOTHER 5 years before I was even eligible to take the masters exam.

Plumbing is not just a TRADE it is a science requiring years of studying hydraulics codes and practical applications.

Here You come long asking for some “expert” advice and someone tells you about something being to expensive HAVING TOTAL disregard for your health and welfare.

They also have no conception of the mess that is involved in clean up from raw sewerage in a living space. Lynn never asked about pricend only asked for a professional opinion on doing the RIGHT JOB and having a trouble free system as much as possible WHICH they have every right to expect.

Had HJ thought about pay back time his “expensive” job would have been the cheapest insurance possible. EVEN for argument sake this duplex system did cost $2,500 MORE taken over a 20 year period WHAT is the actual cost compared to one flood in your parents living quarters?

I cannot stand incompetence on my job sites or from my employees.
People pay a lot for my services and they deserve the best possible job they can get for their hard earned money.

I very seldom work for builders or general contractors as I like the work performed properly not so the GC/builder can turn a bigger profit.

I walk away from more jobs then I take if the specifications are not correct.

I didn’t volunteer my time here to see some jackleg mechanic screw up a new home being built to save absolutely NOTHING but actual cause you inconvenience.

Mark my words the one pump will fail THEY ALL DO and just having an alarm is like a car with no brakes BUT THE HORN works

This make shift add on’s are going to cause you more loss of time and money then doing the job RIGHT the first time. IM sorry if I offended anyone BUT I take my profession very seriously. Have a great one and Enjoy your new home. Sylvan

[Edited by SylvanLMP on 31 July 2000]

[hjParticipant]

Lynn C.
To add a high water alarm, install a separate float in series with an alarm light and/or bell. When the water rises, if the pump does not operate, the float will activate the alarm. At that point, your parents should cease using the plumbing downstairs. In addition, in the case of a power failure, neither the pump or the alarm will work, so they should not use the plumbing then either.

[Ken ZoellerParticipant]

Lynn to answer your questions
1.) Use a garden hose as someone stated.
2.) Not knowing what size your basin is, it will be very difficult to say if a second pump could be retrofitted in. I would need to know the diameter and depth of the basin. In a retrofit, there are at least 2 ways to do it. There may be more. Add a second pump beside the one in there if the basin is big enough in diameter. We do make a duplex controller just for the home which is a lot less expensive than anything Sylvan has suggested and gives you all the protection a big duplex control panel has. Go to http://www.zoeller.com and look for it under http://www.zoeller.com/zcopump/products/controlaccess/smartpak.htm The second way if the basin is not big enough in diameter but is deep enough is to stack the unit so that second pump turns on after the alarm goes off. You silence the alarm and let the second pump work while the first pump is repaired. The pump will fail and need to be service even it is a Zoeller or brands “S” , “M” ,”H” or “L”. With diameter and depth I could help you out on a fit.
Now to answer the other questions addressed by others, but not in Lynn’s questions.
1.) If there is a check valve, and there need to be one, there needs to be an air relief hole in the discharge pipe below the check valve and below the pit lid.
2.) “I think Ken your going to confuse Lynn with too much facts that the installing plumber should have performed during normal installation.” Then you proceed to give more info for the next how many lines? All I tried to do was answer Lynn’s question.
3.) Battery back up system? There is a battery back up system out there some were. It would control the pump in the hole and would not give the “duplex like” redundancy or an addition pump would need to be added if there is room..
4.) The lid may or may not have to be replaced. A second hole could be put in the lid with a hole saw and an adap-a-flex used or it may be possible to put the check valves below the lid and have one pipe come out, if there is enough depth and room.
5.) To address another issue. Would a duplex package verse a simplex be better in all cases. As a pump manufacture I want to say yes, to sell more pumps. But it is not necessary in all cases. The original question in this posting had to do with Lynn being lead astray by the builder. Not duplex or simplex. A duplex would serve well here, but is it an absolute, no. With an alarm on a separate circuit the family will not be out of total service.

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