- This topic has 17 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 23 years, 2 months ago by
SylvanLMP.
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MasterPlumbers
Could you please settle a dispute for me?
For PROPER installation of 3-4″ diameter outdoor PVC drainage pipes taking water from residential gutters to a lake approximately 80-100 feet away, which way should the bell end of the pipes face–upstream or downstream?
I would really appreciate your professional opinion on this difference of opinions involving proper installation of these pipes.
Thank you very much!
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Upstream,towards the gutter drain
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But the effect of it being the other way around is not enough reason to make somebody pull the drains up, not on stormwater anyway. I think you will have problems getting them to change it
DISCLAIMERAll advice is given with-out seeing the job, and hence all advice MUST be taken as advice with limited knowledge on the exact situation. NO responsibility can or will be taken. And yes, I am a licensed Plumber and Drainer with my own business in Brisbane Australia
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Jean. it doesnt have a noticable effect.
considering that if you used a socket instead of a belled end, one of the joints in the socket would be reverse. -
Jean The proper way would be as Harry stated.If you other guys disagree,call the local plumbing inspector and see what he would make you do.Iagree with Bungie as far as gutter water goes ,Iwouldnt tear it up. Proper is proper.
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Pipepusher. I agree, the “belled” joints should face the flow or be uphill, however in Australia there is no requirement or instruction. Common sense tells me that the “belled” end should be uphill, but realistically, as I said should you use a socket, then one joint must be backward, a rubber ring socket actually leaves a separation because of expansion. We can go into the pro’s & con’s but given a situation recently when one of my licensed plumbers fitted a 150mm sewer pipe socket in reverse the local inspector questioned it, we discussed the problem & agreed that should I cut the offending joint out (solvent welded) & inserted two slip couplings and a short section of pipe, there would be two reverse joints, similarly the junction it was attached to had a reverse joint as did the rest of the fittings within the installation. Which way should the Belled end face? should be uphill but doesnt have any drastic effect other than asthetics & bloody minded attitudes, if faced with an inspector demanding change, I believe that I would request a written defect according to the regulations, as there are no such requirements he would be stuffed. Jeans question, I believe related to Stormwater.In Australia (Queensland) there is no requirement to be licensed for the installation of stormwater, installations are regulated under the Building Code of Australia for new work, but not regulated otherwise.
By the way from where do you come? why don’t you fill in the Profile? Isnt it great to have the oportunity to disagree or even discuss a plumbing subject. -
In reply to message posted by Jean Oliveira:
Could you please settle a dispute for me?For PROPER installation of 3-4″ diameter outdoor PVC drainage pipes taking water from residential gutters to a lake approximately 80-100 feet away, which way should the bell end of the pipes face–upstream or downstream?
I would really appreciate your professional opinion on this difference of opinions involving proper installation of these pipes.
Thank you very much!
The Bell (hub) is the inlet ALWAYS But in Oz anything goes it would appear.
The only time I have ever seen the bell backwards is on a return bend (VENT) never on drainage But then again we do have modern codes to follow.
SylvanLMP -
Mr.Morton If you use a socket or a belled end as long as you lay either with the socket or bell uphill to begin with ,why would one have to be in reverse?I have never seen a pipe with a bell or socketon both ends.Guess you lost me ,maybe I am brain dead tonight.Thanks
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Mr. Morton Is what you call a socket something like a repair coulping or maybe a “slip joint?”We probably call fittings by different names in different countries.A socket to me would be similiar to a bell on the end of a piece of pipe.Boy this should bring out the messages.
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In reply to message posted by pipepusher:
Mr.Morton If you use a socket or a belled end as long as you lay either with the socket or bell uphill to begin with ,why would one have to be in reverse?I have never seen a pipe with a bell or socketon both ends.Guess you lost me ,maybe I am brain dead tonight.Thanks
Mr. Pipe pusher PLEASE think for one minute Or better yet READ a book like something in the order of the CIPSI Cast Iron pipe standards institute publications.
There is something brand new in these books that only have been around since the early 1800s and are STILL made today for real plumbers who want quality drainage systems.
This brand new 150 plus year old plumbing fitting is called DOUBLE HUB cast Iron soil pipe.
The beauty of using extra heavy cast Iron double hub is less waste as with single bell and spigot pipe. DUHHHHHHH
You see sir standard cast Iron pipe comes in 5 foot lenths BUT suppose a REAL legitimate plumber knew what they were doing and needed only a 2 foot piece of pipe then what?
Does he just cut the single hub pipe and throw away the plain end?
I don’t think so, I think a real mechanic would use a double hub pipe and thus have a “Bell” to use some place else rather then waste materials But then again this NEW product is only 150 years old and word has not gone out yet in the trades about this well kept secrete piping arrangement that was well hidden in BOOKS
Ah the joys of reading posting from “plumbers” on these boards makes me really want to try to learn my trade better BUT unfortunately I have no one to ask so I read publications from manufacturers which work wonders in lieu of finding really good skill levels on these lists.
Now considering some folks never HEARD or read anything about this kind of piping is it any wonder why someone not knowing the proper job would place the bell facing down stream.
I guess my Sylvan Learning center will have to open more branch offices for plummm folks who never read fitting manuals
By the way GUY your NOT brain dead what has happened and not your fault. It is America no longer bothers to train mechanics properly and thankfully England and Canada will come to our rescue when we need really great mechanics as America can still settle for the tract house and AAV mentality BUT if we want Quality we need foreign trained folks.
May God Bless the Queen.
SylvanLMP -
Mr Pipepusher. Call me Bob, Im not old enough to be Mr, I have been called worse though, especially by my friends. Still hav’nt got an answer to the easy way to align a Laser.
In Oz a socket is a double ended female coupling, for use in joining two spigotts or male ends of pipe. we have bends in either m&f or f&f, Junctions in m&f or f&f, in fact every sewer or stormwater fitting except a Disconnector trap can be in either m&f or f&f, Doesnt matter how you join them, if you use a f&f fitting, you end up with a reverse joint. Pipe only comes either belled or unbelled. You seem to infer the importance of standards in these matters, but I am confused, how do lay persons carry out installations for GAS,WATER,SEWER, in fact any plumbing in America, then ask & get answers from Licences Plumbers, is there no ethics or pride in the industry in America? In Australia a Licensed Person is responsible for any work that they may carry out, they are also responsible for any advice they may give as proffessionals. In Queensland it is an offence carrying a fine of $12.000.00 for a unlicensed person to carry out any licenced work. I for certain am not about to aid or abett an offence
Ours might be an upside down backward country, but methinks my little pile of dung is warm & safe. While sitting on my front verandah gazing at the Coral sea this morning, I was having breakfast of sliced mango on toast with toasted cheese, I pensivly wondered how the Rich & better off people of this world could possibly be happier.Bob
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Bob,
Your up on the sunshine coast ?? Cooroy?Was at a meeting a couple of weeks back where Jimmy Graham (Brisbane chief Plumbing Inspector) Informed us that as of Jan 1st 2002, all Stormwater laid in Brisbane(including domestic) will come under the Brisbane Council Plumbing Inspectors. all pipe sizing to code and correctly laid and bedded.
That will stuff a few blokes up that quote using 90mm.
DISCLAIMERAll advice is given with-out seeing the job, and hence all advice MUST be taken as advice with limited knowledge on the exact situation. NO responsibility can or will be taken. And yes, I am a licensed Plumber and Drainer with my own business in Brisbane Australia
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When a fitting has a socket on each approach in this case a junction. You look at it you will notice that the two inlets, the pipe sits with the bell end facing up stream. The outlet, the bell end is facing down stream.
Now do you see what Bob meant.Sorry Bob, your from FNQ not the sunshine coast
DISCLAIMERAll advice is given with-out seeing the job, and hence all advice MUST be taken as advice with limited knowledge on the exact situation. NO responsibility can or will be taken. And yes, I am a licensed Plumber and Drainer with my own business in Brisbane Australia
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Bungie. No. I am not on the Sunshine Coast, I live at Bowen, 1200k North of Brisbane or half way between Townsville & Mackay.
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In reply to message posted by bungie:
Bob,
Your up on the sunshine coast ?? Cooroy?Was at a meeting a couple of weeks back where Jimmy Graham (Brisbane chief Plumbing Inspector) Informed us that as of Jan 1st 2002, all Stormwater laid in Brisbane(including domestic) will come under the Brisbane Council Plumbing Inspectors. all pipe sizing to code and correctly laid and bedded.
That will stuff a few blokes up that quote using 90mm.
You know Bungie it is about time plumbing authorties finally woke up and decided to get rid of the stumblebums dabbling in “piping”
The key is PROPER INSTALLATION and sizing of course.
What we need in this country is to call ALL plumbers into a building department and give them a “plumbing test” and then put out of buiness anyone who cannot properly answer code and theroy questions.
Today a lot of so called plumbers are more concerned about flat rape pricing then actually learning the skills required to read and understand how to install pipe and fittings.
SylvanLMP -
Bungie. That will be interesting, How will they police it, Stormwater is braught up in the BCA, We work to the Water & seweage Act, is there legislation to require Plumbers to carry out this work or is te onus on the builder? is the builder now required to have aproval for stormwater? Is stormwater installation to be licensed? I realy cannot see how the Plumbing dept can police Builders as they have only juristiction over Plumbing & Drainage. We should wait for official notification of a local Code instruction from the Dept of Local Govt & planning.
Bob.
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In reply to message posted by Robert Stephen Morton:
Pipepusher. I agree, the “belled” joints should face the flow or be uphill, however in Australia there is no requirement or instruction. Common sense tells me that the “belled” end should be uphill, but realistically, as I said should you use a socket, then one joint must be backward, a rubber ring socket actually leaves a separation because of expansion. We can go into the pro’s & con’s but given a situation recently when one of my licensed plumbers fitted a 150mm sewer pipe socket in reverse the local inspector questioned it, we discussed the problem & agreed that should I cut the offending joint out (solvent welded) & inserted two slip couplings and a short section of pipe, there would be two reverse joints, similarly the junction it was attached to had a reverse joint as did the rest of the fittings within the installation. Which way should the Belled end face? should be uphill but doesnt have any drastic effect other than asthetics & bloody minded attitudes, if faced with an inspector demanding change, I believe that I would request a written defect according to the regulations, as there are no such requirements he would be stuffed. Jeans question, I believe related to Stormwater.In Australia (Queensland) there is no requirement to be licensed for the installation of stormwater, installations are regulated under the Building Code of Australia for new work, but not regulated otherwise.
By the way from where do you come? why don’t you fill in the Profile? Isnt it great to have the oportunity to disagree or even discuss a plumbing subject.
Mr. Morton I am really honored that the Wanker thought you and I are the same. This Goes to show you how the PVC glue ruined an idiots little brain
To bad Loz does not insist on having someone put a profile on here this way the BUMS who are never going to be plumbers/drainers/gasfitters/fire supression piping contractors/ boiler inspectors will stop posting about topics they have no clue to proper installations.
Yes a plastic fitting has a hub (bell) on both sides BUT the hub should be pointing in the direction of flow.
Also the so called American plumbing industry board does not follow through with removing the non knowing from dabbling in the field.
Half the bums here cannot even explain how to install and size a suds pressure zone let alone install proper radius fittings.
Ask them to explain a simple sud pressure zone and where to install it.The members of Oz, Canada, England etc. really puts this country to shame when it comes to finding really qualified blokes.
It is a shame We can not inport you folks as plumbers/gas fitters here THEN we would have the best of both worlds. GREAT Mechanics and the best materials available.
SylvanLMP -
In reply to message posted by Joe Bob:
Sylvan Still causing hate and discontent,huh?
Oh yes an OLD Navy Term hate and dicontent LOL
Actually the list was way to quiet so I figured Id ratle the stumblebums cages
Now the brain dead think Im Steven. I love it playing with the idiots pea brain
Well there really is one born every minute (Sucker) too bad these trades have most of them. Have a great week end guy
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