Air Sputter from tap 1st try in morning

[Anonymous]

A client contacted me about a new house problem that someone else plumbed. When turing on the faucet s (any faucets) first thing in the morning, air sputters out with the HOT water and piping clanks due to the jerkiness of the flow. Lasts for a few minutes and then is clear for the rest of the day. Condition begin day one, electric water heater, copper piping, good water pressure even when several faucets on, water heater on same level as rest of fixtures, piping runs in crawl space below, One level home, city water supply, double check valve (public supply back flow protection) on upstream side of water meter. Pressure relief valve on main line in house, NO pressure accumulator (bladder) tank at water heater. Neighbors don’t have this problem.

If I can solve this problem I will be a hero and be THE master plumber of the town !

Anybody got any ideas ???

[Harold KestenholzParticipant]

This ties in well with the previous answer. The bubbles collect in the high spot as the water is heated. The heater acts as a collector for the air, but there is no place to release the air. An air vent at that collection point built to take the water pressure (heating air vents are good to only 40 psig) can get rid of the air as it collects.

[bungieParticipant]

Shouldnt any air build up in the way you suggest, be released by the temperature/pressure relief valve ?

Is the temperature/pressure relief valve working ??

[AquarianParticipant]

The T&P valve doesn’t care whether its air or water, only if the pressure is too high or the temperature is too high. It can’t do what you think it can, that is, distinguish air from water.

[bungieParticipant]

The T&P valve is at the top of the tank, the air would sit at the top of the tank, air compresses greater than water. When the valve releases it should take the air first if there was any in the tank.

I know it doesnt see water and air as two seperate things

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Harold, As a “HEATING EXPERT” and one time Stationary Engineer and Master Plumber & Master Fire Suppression piping Contractor and Certified Drainer and Low pressure Boiler and unfired pressure vessel inspector (ASME)

I must correct your statement “heating air vents are good to only 40 psig”

You see kind sir normally on hydronic systems near boiler piping I never use anything less then a Hoffman Model 79 which has a Max working pressure of 75 PSIG and a rating up to 250 degrees (121 deg C) with a Max hydrostatic pressure of 200 PSIG

Now when I encounter an air condition ( problems) on anything other then a low pressure system I use the Hoffman Model 78.

The 78 HIGH pressure works on hot cold and glycol systems (Great for air handlers)
This has a cast brass body so domestic water is not a problem

The other factor about the 78 is its ability to work with a maximum working pressure of 150 PSIG and a hydrostatic pressure of 450 PSIG
with a maximum temperature of 250 degrees.

There are other vents I can give you specification on that I use in my heating/HVAC projects that do require air removal BUT the 78 should cure all the ills of this system as the 78 will also work on cold water piping.

Have a great week end. Ah the Joys of learning EVERYDAY

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Bungie, My good friend.

About the air compressing at the top of the tank it doesn’t matter as long as the pressure doesn’t exceed the set pressure of 150 PSI or a temperature of 210 deg.

You see the T&P is unique in design doing two jobs instead of the normal pressure “relief” ( water, liquid) and the “Safety”
(steam,vapor,gasir, etc.)

The main concern is not so much air build up as STEAM does expand a lot when released all of a sudden from a closed container.

Water at 250 degrees can be brutal when released in one shot

The T&P is the only safety on a H/W tank and it should not be considered to act as an operating controller or automatic air remover.

This is why manufacturers do make other devices that work in conjunction with the tanks like expansion tanks, air vents etc.

Aquarian is correct.

A lot of Blokes like you Bungie never think about the actual design of the safety on these tanks and you think the T&P is a catch all for all problems that can occur.

Bungie why not read up on some of the articles posted by Michael the Gas man relating to gas fired equipment?

Have a great week end Mate

[Harold KestenholzParticipant]

Sylvan, we disagree because:

“Now when I encounter an air condition ( problems) on anything other then a low pressure system I use the Hoffman Model 78.”

The cheap whistles that are ordinarily sold to bargain-hunters have stamped right on them that they are limited to 40 psig.

As a real expert, you use good equipment, rather than cheap bargains. So you are talking about what YOU do, not what most other folks do. The toughest thought for an expert to get over is that your experience is not the norm, and the inexperienced need to be warned about using the WRONG stuff first.

Good that you told them about the 78 to direct them to the better equipment.

[GuestParticipant]

Aqua: This could simply be an accumulation of gas from the anode inside your water heater.
The anode is placed inside the heater to protect it from corrosion. As the anode is consumed, gasses are released at both it and the cathode (tank Lining). If there is a great deal of corrosion activity going on inside the heater, these gasses could accumulate in sufficient quantities during the night to cause the discharge as you have described.
Watts Regulator makes a small device that connects to the water heater piping and releases the gas as it starts to build up. The cost
of this device is less than $10.00.
Bud……….

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Harold, this question was asked by a professional plumber “Aquarian”
who is more comcerned about QUALITY rather then the cheap way out.

There was a STUMBLE BUM NON LICENSED LOW LIFE who’s only concern was PRICE and this is not the problem here.

I know who I am dealing with here as Aquarian has posted some high quality posts and answers.

The Stumble BUM that was on here I am happy to report said he wasn’t going to post on here again BUT I think this liar will be back.

Harold when you think about the actual cost of the proper air eliminator compared to a plumbers service call the better materials come in so much cheaper in the long run.

Quality pays.

The losers of society are the ones who go to a home center any buy a valve for $3.00 THEN cry when it fails in the closed position.

When I post an answer I try to give the best advice based on years of training and experience NOT thinking CHEAP but I try to think RIGHT.

Harold you must read the advice given to this woman who was building a brand new two family home and some cheap guy told her one sewerage ejector would be all right never thinking about redundancy Like Federal pumps suggest.

All his postings were based on bottom line prices and his last posting really was the pits saying “most plumbers can install a new bathroom for $1,200”

Think about it one man 2 days PLUS materials HOW can anyone use any type of Quality for this in workmanship OR material for this price?

People get what they normally pay for.

[bungieParticipant]

Try again…

If there is air in the hot water system it will sit at the top of the tank, if the T&P valve is operating it will draw the air out first, then the water.

If bud is correct and the anode is releasing gases as it deteriorates plus the rise in temp as its heated overnight then the combined SHOULD set of the T&P valve, as the taps being off and the nonreturn valve on the tank, you now have a closed system, the pressure WILL increase. 3-5% of the volume of the tank will discharge through the T&P ever time during heating, plus the expanded gases bud mentioned.

So check to make sure the valve isnt jammed.

Easier for you to understand ??

[bungieParticipant]

Anyway, none of the above posts address the problem. I assume its Friday night in the US.
Aquarian – assuming you are able to and want to, contact your customer tonight and either you or the customer first thing in the morning before using any other tap in the house need to blow the T&P valve. ( Need to locate source of air)
If you find you have a large volume of air coming from the hot water system and Bud is right about the annode they have a problem wioth the tank. The life expectancy is 15 years or so at the rate it must be burning up to create “When turing on the faucet s(any faucets) first thing in the morningir sputters out with the HOT water and piping clanks due to the jerkiness of the flow. Lasts for a few minutes “something would be wrong with the system whether there is an electrical fault or something wrong with the annode. Maybe the manufacturers should be asked to look at the hot water system.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Try again…
If there is air in the hot water system it will sit at the top of the tank, if the T&P valve is operating it will draw the air out first, then the water. , < WRONG,WRONG,

Bungie AGAIN listen READ and try to learn Mate.

Even if the water pressure goes up
25% and the normal city water pressure is 60# your talking 75 PSI EVEN if we DOUBLED the city pressure for expansion it is still under the 150 PSI set pressure

Now mate lets talk code OK? The T&P shall be located in the upper most 6″ of the hottest water correct? (ASME section IV I believe)

So lets say this device is 5″ from the top of the tank WE ARE STILL WITHIN CODE BUT we can have an air space of 41/2 to 5″

So figuring the pressure goes up UNTIL it reaches 150 NOTHING will happen OR a temperature of 210 degrees F.

Even if this valve should discharge the air pocket ABOVE this relief valve will NOT go down through the water to escape AIR BUBBLES on this side of the world RISE not unlike you DOWN UNDER BACKWARDS MATES.

Look at your Vortex in the sink man ITS BACKWARDS.

Using YOUR reasoning Bungie I think YOU should install the T&P at the bottom of the tank as in your neck of the woods Air BUBBLES SINK HUH you bloody Bloke

One more point Bud is VERY seldom wrong and you my bloody Aussie Mate are VERY seldom correct

Have a great week end mate. Your friend across the pond LOL

[bungieParticipant]

“Try again…
If there is air in the hot water system it will sit at the top of the
tank, if the T&P valve is operating it will draw the air out first, then
the water. , < WRONG,WRONG,

Bungie AGAIN listen READ and try to learn Mate.

Even if the water pressure goes up
25% and the normal city water pressure is 60# your talking 75 PSI
EVEN if we DOUBLED the city pressure for expansion it is still under
the 150 PSI set pressure

Now mate lets talk code OK? The T&P shall be located in the upper
most 6″ of the hottest water correct? (ASME section IV I believe)

So lets say this device is 5″ from the top of the tank WE ARE STILL
WITHIN CODE BUT we can have an air space of 41/2 to 5″ “

Hmmmmmmm ……. You dont really believe there is 41/2 to 5″ of air in the top of the hot water system do you ??

” One more point Bud is VERY seldom wrong and you my bloody Aussie
Mate are VERY seldom correct “

If you care to read the post ONE word at a time, you will see that i didnt disagree with bud

Again…. assuming bud is right and its the anode bubbling and creating gas. Enough gas (oxygen or whatever) to cause the taps to have “air sputters out with the HOT water and piping clanks due to the jerkiness of the flow. Lasts for a few minutes”. this much gas being created in a closed tank will increase the pressure VERY high. The T&P valve is the only way for this to escape, Again please ensure the valve is working. If it is “fan bloody tastic” at least we will then know that while sylvan is riding his high horse we are not letting a possible dangerous situation arise.

You only get 60psi on the mains (411kpa)?? 750-800kpa isnt unusual here. See, my 150psi valve (1000kpa setting) isnt that far from the trip setting on the valve, as I have said before, our hot water systems are set above 66c (150f) Doesnt need much expansion huh?

Have a top day sunshine

hmmmm since HTML has been activated it will not see my {snip} hence the edit
[Edited by bungie on 26 August 2000]

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

ou only get 60psi on the mains (411kpa)?? 750-800kpa isnt unusual here. See, my 150psi valve (1000kpa setting) isnt that far from the trip setting on the valve, as I have said before, our hot water systems are set above 66c (150f) Doesnt need much expansion .< DUH WHY NOT INSTALL an EXPANSION TAKE MATE?Do you know WHAT an EXPANSION tank is?

Bungie, seriously think about this. I’m in a village of approx. 6 million folks.

Now the water supply in many of these area’s were installed over 100 years ago.

Considering these pipes were never designed for this population OR sky scraping buildings it kind of puts a slight demand on the supply piping to maintain VOLUME so NYC has increased pressure in some area’s.

Now considering we know that increasing pressure will also cause erosion if the velocity is allowed to go unchecked we have codes that say any incoming pressure exceeding 85 PSI shall be (means this is it no ifs AND’s or buts) reduced to 85 PSI.

Now most knowledgeable plumbers would take the actual height of the building water supply by one of the following means.

1- Shut off the supply put a gauge on the closest hose connection and look at the hydrostatic pressure.

2- Take this pressure reading and times it by . 434 to find your actual no flow conditions THEN add in the amount of pressure ACTUALLY required for proper operation of the device faucet/showerbody / Flushometers etc.

3- knowing you need about 25 PSI to operate a flushometers properly we can either add this to footage 25 . 434 11 ft more head OR

4- Take this 25 PSI add it to the static pressure THEN times this by 2.31 PLUS another 5 PSI to over come friction losses.

In other words mate WHY have incoming pressure of 85 PSI that will elevate water to a height of 196 FEET? That sir is enough pressure to supply a 10 story building for Pete’s sake

What rational do you bloody blokes use? Do you have any idea of the velocity your pushing through these bloody pipes?

THINK for one minute if YOU did things properly and worked like REAL plumbers instead of wasting all this energy think what could be accomplished.

JUST because I could fit a 1,000 horse power engine in my car doesn’t mean I should when 165 HP would be more then adequate for my needs.

By installing a proper pressure reducing valve in EVERY home and building you have the following benefits.

1- Less demand on the pumping stations

2- More available street pressure for more homes and emergencies like fire hydrants

3- Less pressure put on equipment like a water heater for example, why operate even close the max rating? DO you Drive your Dune buggy at max speeds ?

4- By being a professional and DESIGNING the flow rates as a REAL plumber would, you would be saving your victims countless amount of damage when a pipe should burst as the flow of water wouldnt be as drastic as YOUR hit and miss design.

By code I can install a low pressure (hydronic) boiler up to 160 PSI and 250 DEGREES ( ASME section IV) (NBBI)
But being a professional I normally run my boilers between 12-15 PSI and about 180 degrees.

BUT If the need arises I can and have installed higher pressure systems with much higher temperature’s for commerical applications.

Bungie LOOK AT a hot water heater LOOK where the Relief valve is located AIR DOES NOT go down IT RISES. Possibly this doesnt happen down under huh?

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

ou only get 60psi on the mains (411kpa)?? 750-800kpa isnt unusual here. See, my 150psi valve (1000kpa setting) isnt that far from the trip setting on the valve, as I have said before, our hot water systems are set above 66c (150f) Doesnt need much expansion .< DUH WHY NOT INSTALL an EXPANSION TAKE MATE?Do you know WHAT an EXPANSION tank is?

Bungie, seriously think about this. I’m in a village of approx. 6 million folks.

Now the water supply in many of these area’s were installed over 100 years ago.

Considering these pipes were never designed for this population OR sky scraping buildings it kind of puts a slight demand on the supply piping to maintain VOLUME so NYC has increased pressure in some area’s.

Now considering we know that increasing pressure will also cause erosion if the velocity is allowed to go unchecked we have codes that say any incoming pressure exceeding 85 PSI shall be (means this is it no ifs AND’s or buts) reduced to 85 PSI.

Now most knowledgeable plumbers would take the actual height of the building water supply by one of the following means.

1- Shut off the supply put a gauge on the closest hose connection and look at the hydrostatic pressure.

2- Take this pressure reading and times it by . 434 to find your actual no flow conditions THEN add in the amount of pressure ACTUALLY required for proper operation of the device faucet/showerbody / Flushometers etc.

3- knowing you need about 25 PSI to operate a flushometers properly we can either add this to footage 25 . 434 11 ft more head OR

4- Take this 25 PSI add it to the static pressure THEN times this by 2.31 PLUS another 5 PSI to over come friction losses.

In other words mate WHY have incoming pressure of 85 PSI that will elevate water to a height of 196 FEET? That sir is enough pressure to supply a 10 story building for Pete’s sake

What rational do you bloody blokes use? Do you have any idea of the velocity your pushing through these bloody pipes?

THINK for one minute if YOU did things properly and worked like REAL plumbers instead of wasting all this energy think what could be accomplished.

JUST because I could fit a 1,000 horse power engine in my car doesn’t mean I should when 165 HP would be more then adequate for my needs.

By installing a proper pressure reducing valve in EVERY home and building you have the following benefits.

1- Less demand on the pumping stations

2- More available street pressure for more homes and emergencies like fire hydrants

3- Less pressure put on equipment like a water heater for example, why operate even close the max rating? DO you Drive your Dune buggy at max speeds ?

4- By being a professional and DESIGNING the flow rates as a REAL plumber would, you would be saving your victims countless amount of damage when a pipe should burst as the flow of water wouldnt be as drastic as YOUR hit and miss design.

By code I can install a low pressure (hydronic) boiler up to 160 PSI and 250 DEGREES ( ASME section IV) (NBBI)
But being a professional I normally run my boilers between 12-15 PSI and about 180 degrees.

BUT If the need arises I can and have installed higher pressure systems with much higher temperature’s for commerical applications.

Bungie LOOK AT a hot water heater LOOK where the Relief valve is located AIR DOES NOT go down IT RISES. Possibly this doesnt happen down under huh?

[bungieParticipant]

“So lets say this device is 5″ from the top of the tank WE ARE STILL WITHIN CODE BUT we can have an air space of 41/2 to 5” “

Is it really with the USA code to have 41/2 to 5″ of air inside a tank of tepid water ? how do I spell legionella

“DUH WHY NOT INSTALL an EXPANSION TAKE MATE?Do you know WHAT an EXPANSION tank is?”, Yes, but only from the talk here. We dont use them over here.

“Now the water supply in many of these area’s were installed over 100 years ago.” Brisbane was opened as a free settlement in 1842 (thought I would give you something to bite on next )

“By installing a proper pressure reducing valve in EVERY home and building you have the following benefits.

1- Less demand on the pumping stations”

Hence water towers

“2- More available street pressure for more homes and emergencies
like fire hydrants”

Our street pressure would appear to be higher

“3- Less pressure put on equipment like a water heater for example, why operate even close the max rating? DO you Drive your Dune buggy at max speeds ?”

HWS have cold water expansion valves. drive a dune buggy at max speed?? …. shit yeah

“4- By being a professional and DESIGNING the flow rates as a REAL plumber would, you would be saving your victims countless amount of damage when a pipe should burst as the flow of water wouldnt be as drastic as YOUR hit and miss design.”

Its the copper piping over there that we see all the posts about that are having pitting problems and leaking, not here

I have customers, its not very nice to call yours “victims”

I must admit, Once in a blue moon, when a council main blows …..Its quite a show. People do not realise the power of water. Part of my buisness is the maintainance of water lifts, domestic and commercial. People build their own units, connected straight to the water mains without any pumping equipment. They dont understand that if incorrectly made, these machines have a shear point as the car passes a floor level. Any limb or your head sticking out past this point WILL be amputated without much noticable speed drop in the car.

home sweet home

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

So lets say this device is 5″ from the top of the tank WE ARE STILL WITHIN CODE BUT we can have an air space of 41/2 to 5″ “
Is it really with the USA code to have 41/2 to 5″ of air inside a tank of tepid water ? how do I spell legionella

Answer- YOU don’t as the TEMPERATURE if high enough to “POP” the safety would certainly kill ANY type of bacteria.

Safety = STEAM/vapor
Relief = Water/liquid

The code does say the probe shall be with in the upper most 6″ of the hottest water. if memory serves me correct I do not walk around with all the code books sorry

“DUH WHY NOT INSTALL an EXPANSION TAKE MATE? Do you know WHAT an EXPANSION tank is?”, Yes, but only from the talk here. We dont use them over here.

Answer: THIS is exactly WHY you have victims NOT clients Mate Your behind the times as usual.

Knowing you have VERY high incoming water pressure there is NO VALID excuse not to have either a Pressure reducer and or an expansion tank Mate.

“Now the water supply in many of these area’s were installed over 100 years ago.” Brisbane was opened as a free settlement in 1842 (thought I would give you something to bite on next )

Answer: Sir IM talking about Cast Iron water Mains and Aqua Ducts NOT hollowed out Trees or bamboo. We have Sewer piping from 1664 (Canal Street) if you care to compare CIVILIZED ways of living

“By installing a proper pressure reducing valve in EVERY home and building you have the following benefits.

1- Less demand on the pumping stations”

Hence water towers:

Answer Not necessary take 2.31 TIMES the pressure this is the height it will pump my good friend. NOT every building is a high rise and needs excessive pressure.
Look at my article TWO Views of high rise buildings on Loz’s site (Plumbviews Articles written by yours truly)

Bungie, it is also known SOME countries do have booster pumps in the basement/main floor to get water up to where it is needed.

Why should a city water supply be responsible to get water up over a 1/4 mile high (world trade center Or the Sears Building in Chicago)

“2- More available street pressure for more homes and emergencies
like fire hydrants”

Our street pressure would appear to be higher:

Answer: BUT at what price in erosion and the real possibility of major faults being created by undetected under ground leakage?

“3- Less pressure put on equipment like a water heater for example, why operate even close the max rating? DO you Drive your Dune buggy at max speeds ?”

HWS have cold water expansion valves. drive a dune buggy at max speed?? …. shit yeah

Answer: cold water “expansion” valves are prone to failure by just their design.

A lot of blokes use a 1/2 diameter C/W relief that becomes inoperable do to water impurities like calcium build up or other sediment. An expansion tank is just added insurance. Also thinking like a “plumber” we figure relieving capacity.

Knowing your excessive pressure conditions and knowing the limited relieving capacity of most C/W relief valves and KNOWING these devices are spring activated and the out let cannot keep up with the inlet Pressure Volume why use it as the ONLY safety when you have viable options?

“4- By being a professional and DESIGNING the flow rates as a REAL plumber would, you would be saving your victims countless amount of damage when a pipe should burst as the flow of water wouldn’t be as drastic as YOUR hit and miss design.”

Its the copper piping over there that we see all the posts about that are having pitting problems and leaking, not here

Answer: Have you taken water quality into consideration AND the AREA’S of the united States and the Population and the Chemicals my Government sees fit to dump into our water mains.

Fluoride, Chlorine and other great life form killers. Chlorine is poison, yet they allow more chlorine in water supplies then in swimming pools

Did you also consider the DROP in training in this country and how illegal aliens are now doing “plumbing” in the states with the most failures?

The copper/ cast Iron jobs I did as an apprentice (66-74) are still as good as new using copper tubing BUT the toilet parts did take a severe hit from the rubber parts disintegrating from the water supply being “treated”

I have customers, its not very nice to call yours “victims”

Answer: Wrong Mate anyone standing in 3 feet of sewerage OR 500 GPM flowing from a busted pipe inside their home is a VICTIM just like being hit by an IDIOT MORON driving a dune buggy over a blind hill not caring WHO is on the other side Ta Dum

Have a great week end mate

[bungieParticipant]

I’ll follow this up tomorrow night, I dont have time to play today

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

No problem Mate I quite understand you need help in going against this Yank LOL. Let the GAMES Begin

[bungieParticipant]

I’m baaaaack. Awwwwww, you came a knocking and i couldnt come out to play, but you still waited until i was able too

“Answer- YOU don’t as the TEMPERATURE if high enough to “POP” the safety would certainly kill ANY type of bacteria.”
But you said yours doesnt reach that high temp, set at 55c i think, cannot remember the exact temp

“Answer: THIS is exactly WHY you have victims NOT clients Mate Your behind the times as usual.

Knowing you have VERY high incoming water pressure there is NO VALID excuse not to have either a Pressure reducer and or an expansion tank Mate.”

From Rheems own paperwork

This answers your question about the valve tripping

“Answer: Sir IM talking about Cast Iron water Mains and Aqua Ducts NOT hollowed out Trees or bamboo. We have Sewer piping from 1664 (Canal Street) if you care to compare CIVILIZED ways of living”

Brisbane was opened as a free settlement in 1842 (thought I would give you something to bite on next )….The bite I was letting you have next was, that we were a penal colony before 1842

“Why should a city water supply be responsible to get water up over a 1/4 mile high (world trade center Or the Sears Building in Chicago)”

they dont
from http://www.masterplumbers.com/plumbing/plumbviews/1999/watersupply.html
“People take Master Plumbers for granted, never realizing the schooling involved to be a REAL plumber.
This building you mentioned can be piped several ways.
1 – pumps to a roof tank
2 – Hydro pneumatic tanks in the basement
3 – Pressure boosters.
4 – street pressure to a few floors and pump/gravity to the other floors. “

Me thinks WTC or Sears would be either 1 or 4 (would that make them water towers ?? )

“Answer: cold water “expansion” valves are prone to failure by just their design.”

We have strict codes in regards to what can be used on the plumbing systems here. Something that is “prone to failure by just their design” would not be allowed onto the market http://www.masterplumbers.com/plumbing/plumb_news/2000/august/valves.html Now i have to admit i havent seen these valves

“Answer: Have you taken water quality into consideration AND the AREA’S of the united States and the Population and the Chemicals my Government sees fit to dump into our water mains.

Fluoride, Chlorine and other great life form killers. Chlorine is poison, yet they allow more chlorine in water supplies then in swimming pools”

Dont jump up and down at me, you lead us to believe you have spent many years of hard work getting yourself into a position where people in power will listen. Great fantastic tell them

“BUT the toilet parts did take a severe hit from the rubber parts disintegrating from the water supply being “treated” “

Had that problem here about 18 months back on the north side of the city. Council scowered the lines …. a lot of WC’s with non genuine rubbers had problems. It curled up the washers like a pappadom

“Answer: …….. just like being hit by an IDIOT MORON driving a dune buggy over a blind hill not caring WHO is on the other side Ta Dum”

Went, but I didnt see ya

“Have a great week end mate”

I did, hope you and yours did too

Your serve

[bungieParticipant]

Just a quick question ….. Aquarian did you find the problem ?? Curious to know what you found

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

HELLO BUNGIE anyone home UPSTAIRS? RE READ your “Rheem own paperwork”

HELLO BUNGIE READ THIS > “THE VALVE IS “NEAR” THE TOP” DUH

Like I told you mate within 6″ of the UPPER MOST HOT WATER.

You see mate you being from down under have YET to learn the why
we do things.

Your still learning kind sir as you posted Near the top? What is NEAR? 2″ or 30″ this is why we have to look further into the code.. INTERPRETATION is everything.

Saying “near” is not really beneficial BUT me saying with in 6″ of the hottest water LEAVES NO DOUBT to PROPER LOCATION.

Again your back wards codes will end up killing someone as a PRV can fail with mineral build up SO having an expansion tank also installed cant hurt.

The Air pressure that I tried to enlighten you about Mate is STILL within code as it is ABOVE the “near the top ” installation NOT a top mounted relief valve installation.

LOOK at your INFAMOUS DRAWING sir LOL

[GuestParticipant]

You guys are a fiesty bunch. Here’s a thought. The source of the gas is the anode. But the gas isn’t forming on the tank walls but rather forming in copper pipes perhaps due to some improper electrical connection or other reaction.

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

Shalom kibitzer, That would work under the following PERFECT conditions.

When I worked as a practicing stationary engineer on high pressure steam I found when the steam cooled it created a vacuum in some systems sucking in air BUT when under pressure these small “leaks” would disappear from the expansion of the piping and valves.

GREAT thought though anything is possible in this profession SHALOM again. Sylvan

[bungieParticipant]

I never questioned the position of the valve, what i questioned was this statement “So lets say this device is 5″ from the top of the tank WE ARE STILL WITHIN CODE BUT we can have an air space of 41/2 to 5″ ” <---- again i ask, you really believe there is constant 41/2 - 5" of air inside your tank ??

In a hot water system “here” you have a black anode (magnesium) for area’s with less than 600 parts per million of suspended solids (not sure of the correct expression , but the count is correct)any higher than that and the anode bubbles. Hence above that count you use a blue anode (aluminum). Its possible under those circumstances that given the unit with a black anode in an area with the count greater than 600ppm WILL create bubbling in the tank, just as bud said (which sylvan, if you care to read back, will find i didn’t say he was incorrect)

[enterpriseParticipant]

i had air spurting only on the hot water side the anode in the hot water tank was ruined and needed to be replaced the anode installed in my brand new heater was the wrong one also the fact i had well water also made a difference as to the one i needed

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Harold Kestenholz:
This ties in well with the previous answer. The bubbles collect in the high spot as the water is heated. The heater acts as a collector for the air, but there is no place to release the air. An air vent at that collection point built to take the water pressure (heating air vents are good to only 40 psig) can get rid of the air as it collects.

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Harold come on guy Think like a Stationary engineer and not like a heating guy or worse yet a simple plumber.

Talking now as a Certified Stationary engineer I must correct the above statement Re: pressure of a system and “air vents”

When I had air problems on the heating and or cooling coils of my giant Air Handlers I would never use anything less then a HOFFMAN # 79 Main Air Valve RATED @ 75 PSI operating pressure and a HYDROSTATIC test pressure around 200 PSI. I still use these air valves on even residential installations not just air handling equipment.

There is also a Hoffman # 78 Which I use on DOMESTIC hot water where the working pressure of up to 150 PSI is allowable and an outstanding hydrostatic pressure of 450 PSI.
Both of these air valves can be used on HOT and Cold water lines.

Now lets talk like a REAL Master Plumber designing a system for the stationary to operate then I would only go for the Hoffman model 792.

I used this on my high rise higher pressure applications with an OUTSTANDING maximum working pressure of 250 PSIG and 300 degree temperature rating.

GREAT for closed higher temperature hydronics wouldn’t you say?

Harold normally a “plumber” does not get to think out of the box and neither does a stypical heating guy BUT being also a licensed and proven stationary engineer I came behind plummmin and heatinnnn guys and had to fix their installations.

I must say my training up to now has been adequate to get me through most heating and plumbing applications BUT we must continue with our training. PLEASE REPORT to our list to kick this topic around .

Hey I am not an “expert witness” for nothing.

Sylvan STILL learning everyday

[kenny bParticipant]

Quote:

Originally posted by SylvanLMP:

“The T&P is the only safety on a H/W tank”

the E.C.O. is also a safty device

[GuestParticipant]

The deterioration of the anode should be a significant clue as to the origin of sputtering from the faucet. Rapid decomposition of an anode is a sure sign that some serious electrolytic activity is going down in your wa wa heater.
As the anode breaks down from being sacrificed on the alter of prolonged life for the heater, it evolves copious amounts of Hydrogen gas.
If the pump or suction line on your well water set up is sucking
air, it will wind up in your storage tank.
If you feel comfortable doing this test to determine the source of the sputtering vapors emitted
at the tap.
Put on your flameproof jockey shorts and very carefully open the faucet until the first hint of escaping gas is heard…present a
source of ignition..if there is no snap..crackle and popping evidenced
then it is air from your well system.
Akmed
He who has health, has hope; and he who has hope, has everything.
Arbian Proverb
Suncoast Plumbing

[kenny bParticipant]

Quote:

Originally posted by SylvanLMP:

The T&P is the only safety on a H/W tank

(lets not forget the e.c.o.)

[kenny bParticipant]

my apologies on posting twice
kenny b

[SylvanLMPParticipant]

quote:

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Originally posted by kenny b:

Quote:

Originally posted by SylvanLMP:

“The T&P is the only safety on a H/W tank”

the E.C.O. is also a safty device

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Correct I should have said “On residencial gas fired heaters” as per ASME section IV and the NBBI

[Author]

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