Low water Pressure

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    • #273239
      Anonymous

      Hello all.

      Our home’s water pressure is about 30psi at best. Needless to say, our water pressure when taking a shower and running the washer machine at the same time is poor. I took a look at our city water meter and discovered that the main line (approx 1 1/2 “) from the road is reduced (approx 3/4″) where the line tees into the water meter. The tee at the water meter then expands back to the same size (approx 1 1/2″) and runs to the house. If the city replaced the tee at the water meter (3/4”) to the same size as the lines going from the main line and to the house, would this fix the problem?

      Many thanks.

    • #287151

      You cannot create pressure by decreasing a pipe size. If your starting off with 30# PSI no matter what you do your going to have 30 PSI coming out.

      What the Genius did is to increase your velocity going through the meter (FPS) but at the cost of causing you a major volume shortage.

      By this size reduction YOU would need (4) 3/4 lines to give you the same Volume as
      (1) 11/2 ” line not including the loss through meter and fittings. Because of the severe necking down of piping your volume drop would cause a temporary drop in pressure as the Volume has to be made up. TELL the installer someone was in the shower when another person used a toilet and the person in the shower was severely scalded and YOU demand to have their insurer carries number as your lawyer needs it for Criminal negligence case you plan on instituting against them.

      Amazing the folks dabbling in plumbing

    • #287152

      Hi
      Check and see if you have a preasure reducing valve in your house. If your PRV is over 10 years old it would be a good idea to replace it.Sometimes you can pull the screen out and clean them and reset the preasure,but it doesn’t always work. I usuaslly just replace themthat way you get no callbacks.
      hope this helps.
      its not like the courts need Another lawsuit

    • #287153

      Gerard By threatening “law suit” the work will hopefully progress faster.

      By just arbitrary increasing the pressure YOU also will increase the flow rate in FPS.

      Even a low pressure of 30# will elevate water to a height of 69 feet ( not including friction losses)

      Most fixtures can operate well under 30 PSI BUT the volume shortage is the main concern.

      They cannot make up this volume loss by increasing the pressure,
      even if they could increase pressure as they can only get so much water in a given size pipe.
      Physics at work here.

      Having excessive flow especially in a copper tubing system WILL CAUSE EROSION and possible hydraulic shock problems (water hammering)

      On the cold water the excessive pressure most folks could get away for years without problems BUT on the hot water piping they will have pitting problems and a piping failure prematurely. The key is the vast reduction in piping sizes which will cause turbulent flow. See Hazen -Williams flow charts.

      Have a great week end

    • #287154

      If you have an old galvanized pipe water service it may be rusted shut. The water meter strainer could also be clogged.

    • #287155

      Thanks for everyone’s postings.

      I have a few more comments to add. We have had irrigation installed in our front yard. Because the water volume is limited, a water pump was installed so the irrigation will work correctly. It’s a huge pump too – 1 horse power!!

      Anyway, when the pump runs, we have zero water in the house. In fact, once the irrigation stops running each morning, we have air in our lines upstairs, which I’m very concerned about.

      I will call the city this week and get someone our here. If they replace the tee to eliminate the bottleneck, maybe the volume would suffice to run the irrigation without the pump.

      Thanks again for your comments.

    • #287156

      Putting a pump on a system where there is not enough volume can cause this pump to become air bound and cause cavitation then the pump seals tend to over heat and possibly fail.

      If the pump installer saw this severe reduction from 11/2″ to 3/4″ he/she should have realized that the available water supply is exactly 1/4 to what it was originally intended. The pump installer should have allowed for this by installing a holding tank or the very least a low pressure cut off switch so as not to drain the water supply system.

      Now about the remark about galvanized piping being a possible problem forget about it NEVER happening. Not with a velocity of 19 FPS NO WAY scale can build up.

      Plus the following reasons.

      1- Knowing galvanized piping can have internal corrosion in certain water conditions the local code authorities allow for this by having the piping sized ONE COMMERCIAL larger then actually needed.

      This is the reason under good plumbing practices it is allowable to replace galvanized pipe with one commercially sized smaller copper or brass piping (Non ferrous)

      2- Galvanized by most model codes is NOT allowed to be buried underground unless it is covered properly and the cost of this type of insulation (Coal tar and 15# felt hot applied) cost much more then if the installer used copper Type K (heavy wall copper)

      I’LL bet you a dozen Dunkin donuts once the powers that be increase the pipe to its proper size you most lightly will not need the pump as you will have the volume needed Figuring your pressure is 30 PSI and they give you back your 11/2 dia pipe your flow rate would be around 106-107 GPM !!! MORE then enough for a one family home PLUS sprinkler system (unless you have a golf course to water)

      Right now your GPM flow rate is just under 27 GPM (26.71) That is a lot of water to be missing
      Please keep me posted have a great week end

    • #287157

      If you put a non return valve between the pump and the house this should stop the air in the upstairs taps, by the way, i would say you have a slow leak on the inlet valve of your toilet. This would allow air into the system when the pump kicks in and draws the water from the house.

      SylvanLMP has some Strong ideas at times.
      “Now about the remark about galvanized piping being a possible problem forget about it NEVER happening. Not with a velocity of 19 FPS NO WAY scale can build up.”
      Every tee, bend, and union in a galvanised line means the pipe has been cut to size and threaded on site, so as to fit between the fittings. Each of these points, being threaded on site now has no galvanised protection. These points WILL rust and slowly decrease the internal bore of the pipe over the years. Since you havent told us the age of the house, or even if you know whether you have gal pipes. Saying its not rusted pipes is a bit presumptuous.
      This is not meant as a flame. You have a tendancy to baffle them with bullshit, and forget to look at the simple answer

    • #287158

      The simple answer is the piping supply has been reduced to ONE FORTH of the origional size

      About sucking air in when the pump kicks in.Hey ANY NON code approved ball cock will allow air to be sucked in ( this is why a vacuum breaker is designed to prevent VACUUM).
      Having a one Horse power pump being supplied from a 3/4″ pipe is really not prudent.

      Think about hydronic circulation with a 1/6 HP power motor EVEN on
      a 2″ line. The reason I said forget the Galvanized pipe is the reduction would be the very 1st thing to get rid of. REMEMBER we are not talking Pressure loss AND volume.

      On Natural gas we ony require LESS than a 1/2 PSI but we do depend on volume on 1- Long runs
      (developed lenth) and 2- BTU demand in Cu FT Per Hr. Dont get water and gas piping confused.

      Think like a mechanic seeing the severe restriction someone installed with the choking down of
      size. Have fun

    • #287159

      The reason galvanized water piping is one size larger than copper piping IS NOT because they are anticipating rust build-up, but is because the interior walls are much rougher than copper pipe (check your flow charts).

      As for the pump installed on the water service: Is anyone aware that a lawn sprinkler system is considered a HIGH HAZARD and needs to be isolated from all other water piping with a backpreasure/backflow prevention assembly to prevent contamination of the drinking water supply?

    • #287160

      The reason galvanized water piping is one size larger than copper piping IS NOT because they are anticipating rust build-up, but is because the interior walls are much rougher than copper pipe (check your flow charts).

      As for the pump installed on the water service: Is anyone aware that a lawn sprinkler system is considered a HIGH HAZARD and needs to be isolated from all other water piping with a backpreasure/backflow prevention assembly to prevent contamination of the drinking water supply?

    • #287161

      Art, Why didn’t YOU finish the statement that the back flow preventer MUST be located about the highest sprinkler head a min of 12″ CL You also didn’t mention Hazen Williams flow formulas when you talked about internal piping YOUR wrong again Dude as COPPER tubing although having a less friction losses then the steel counter parts is SUBJECT to pitting and Erosion with water velocity greater than 8 FPS and on hot water 160+ you don’t want your flow rate over 2 FPS.

      You ALSO wrong about sprinklers being considered “high hazard”

      High hazard is where YOU CANNOT have any direct connection such as aspirators, injectors, ejectors or water syphons OR mortuary, dissection, operating and embalming tables and similar equipment like sterilizes ALL of the above SHALL BE water supplied through air gaps Hey what about cooling Towers and boiler feed systems ALSO must be through a FIXED air gap. You now know why a little knowledge is so dangerous.

      PLEASE why don’t you READ code books or ASK a Master Plumber to interpret the safe water drinking act to you OK. There is an EASY class on back flow preventers license YOU should at least take this 3 day course
      Next time you give advice please tell US where the back flow preventor is to be installed GIVE US the C/L ok thanks Buddy
      dont let us wonder. We are HERE TO LEARN from one another

      [Edited by SylvanLMP on 26 July 2000]

    • #287162

      SYLVAN LIMP:

      You still have not seen a licensed physician to get some “good pills” have you? Tsk, tsk, tsk. Why don’t you just chill out and stop being so darn arrogant and sarcastic? If you do, HOME DEPOT might hire you when you retire.

      Jack

      P.S. The retired plumber at Home Depo was right about the water pressure regulator being the cause of the high pitched noise. Thanks for nothing.

    • #287163

      Sylvan Limp:

      I forgot to mention, since you like to boast about how you qualified as an expert witness on prior occasions, your “advice” to frivolously “threaten” a lawsuit will undoubtedly detract from your credibility, if any, as an expert. Moreover, leave the “legal opinions” to a professional, unless you’re a retired attorney working as a plumber.

      With stupid advice such as yours, may you be cursed with many professional negligence actions filed against you.

    • #287164

      I’ll have to agree with Jack on this one, Sylvan. Leave the practice of law to licensed professionals.

      I find it interesting that while you are the first to criticize those who practice your trade with insufficient training and/or LMPs who fail to consult local codes governing the profession, you fail to consider that civil laws exist which allow for suit to be brought against an individual and his/her lawyer for threatening a bogus, harassing, or nuisance cause of action.

      “Amazing the folks dabbling in plumbing” … Would you like to have that statement stricken from the record, counselor? Or would you prefer to be held in more contempt?

    • #287165

      CC you must know where folks like “Jack” come from. His original post was from a guy who went to a home center THEN he had the nerve to second guess the Maven at this home center. Jack IS IMHO a guy who has no problem putting his family at risk as long as the “price is right” ( other wise he would have looked for a LICENSED and INSURED contractor).

      Here he already received “FREE” advice then second guessed it. Jack has NO CREDIBILITY so just ignore his type. He said the store clerk was a retired Plumber BUT if someone is retired I thought that means NON working. My top journeyman gets slightly over $55 PER HR in the envelope for a 35 HR work week (anything over 35 hr. is Double time) SO this is way out of folks like Jacks league.

      Now for your posting kind sir “Sylvan. Leave the practice of law to licensed professionals.
      I find it interesting that while you are the first to criticize those who practice your trade with insufficient training and/or LMPs who fail to consult local codes governing the profession, you fail to consider that civil laws exist which allow for suit to be brought against an individual and his/her lawyer for threatening a bogus, harassing, or nuisance cause of action.”

      There is NOTHING “bogus” with incompetence in any field including plumbing
      By arbitrarily reducing a pipe size is NOT a nuisance to the victims who this happens to.

      About Leave it to the legal expert I have been hired by 4 different law firm as an “expert witness” I have been called in on a consultation on code issues for the US Postal Service.

      When that “nuisance” hot water heater exploded in Oklahoma killing several children in the school it happened I was flown to Oklahoma to give my report to a federal agency PAID @ $225 PER HR 24-7 plus expensive, hotel food etc.

      When a 4 year old was scalded over 60% of her body the NUISANCE law suit was settled with the building owner serving jail time for criminal neglect.

      When The Christian science building had GREEN “Nuisance” boiler chemical feed water being pumped into their domestic water supply from a NON LICENSED guy putting chemical flushing agents into a boiler on a building 1/4 mile away THE folks who got deathly sick But hey you consider this bogus.

      The original question was a reduction by FOUR pipe diameters (in volume) and you consider this “harassing” BUT suppose YOUR child was in the shower and the outside sprinkler went off and the cold water just died leaving strictly hot water YOU still think It should be forgotten?

      CC why not take your children to an unlicensed doctor LIKE Good OLE Jack would do in a heart beat as Price means everything.

      I don’t know if your a Master Plumber or not CC BUT considering a LMP has to go for at least a 5 year apprenticeship THEN work in the trade another 5 years (now 7 years total) before you can even take the masters exam WHY should we tolerate non licensed folks dabbling in this profession DRIVING up our insurance do to incompetence? My insurance is now $40,000 + per year (that is $800 per week)
      My office space is just under $1,800 per month and my shop space is $1,400.

      My drain cleaning van has one jetter on it worth over $12,000 plus all the other equipment like Video inspection and locator plus various snakes and small jetters to the TUNE of $46,000 NOT including the van.

      My plumbing vans are fully stocked and each van has well over $60,000 worth of materials SO DAMN RIGHT I WANT to get the unlicensed/uninsured mutts out of this profession. The kind of mutt that the Jacks of the world would hire they deserve each other. My allowance for “training” of my employees is over $1000 per year per man.

      I believe in a fair days work for a fair days pay and that is why my top mechanic does make $55 per HR (not including benefits) ( the helper gets $22.75 per HR) could you imagine a Jack person getting a bill that I charge my accounts to cover my over head and PROFIT? His mentality (inside joke) thinks he is the only one entitled to make a living other wise HE would never second guess a store clerk. He deserves EXACTLY what the home center gives him.

      When we as plumbers need to be certified welders and know about drain cleaning and OSHA and NIOSH and ASME and ASSE and NFPA and Barrier free designs (ADA) WHY should we over look the jack legs who have no formal education in these trades (plumbing/electrical / HVAC) give it a break CC .

      IM not talking about the fly by night that replaces washers or the faucet replacement guys IM talking about the ones who install under sized flu piping or undersized gas lines.

      Just THINK about it. If your paying a mechanic in the envelope $1925 per 35 hr work week Plus bennies wouldn’t you be slightly upset having them compared to a home center maven? Have a great one.

    • #287166

      SYLVAN LUMP:

      Blah, blah, blah. What does ANYTHING you say have to do with your advice to FRIVOLOUSLY threaten lawsuits? You are part of the problem contributing to the litigious nature of this country. Why do you think you’re paying $40,000 per year for insurance? DUH!!! THINK!!

      Incidentally, any attorney can go hire a $225 “whore” expert (such as yourself) to testify as the attorney wants. That’s why you’re paying $40,000 per year for insurance. DUH!! THINK!!

    • #287167

      sylvan:

      Both of my posts on this matter are correct.

      Also, I must agree with the other post. You’re nothing more that a prostitute. HAVE A HAPPY.

    • #287168

      sylvan:

      Both of my posts on this matter are correct.

      Also, I must agree with the other post. You’re nothing more that a prostitute. HAVE A HAPPY.

    • #287169

      Jack ( I pay 40G cause I can afford to AS it is based on not only liability insurance BUT payroll. When I was paying slightly over $665 PER MONTH PER EMPLOYEE for health insurance that I considered expensive. Your home center mentality says it all. Your a loser guy we both know it. My Mercedes insurance alone was over 3G per year. Hey Jack ask your home center plumber if HE ever owned a 560 SEL if he was a licensed plumber MAKING a decent living. My top mechanic Grossed over $225,000 Last Year WHAT did you do guy?

      Jack your never going to know what being a success means as YOU do not think like a professional. You have a penny ante mentality YOU should stay with the home centers as You could NEVER afford any qualified mechanics. What I donate a YEAR to St. Jude children’s hospital YOU wont make in a month

      Hey Jack how about YOU and I right now make a pledge for $5000 TO ST. Judes hospital OR the AMERICAN cancer society OR Make wish foundation? PUT UP Jack show me YOUR A real man LETS donate to one of these organizations. Come on dude reach into your pocket.

    • #287170

      Sylvan LIMP:

      Congratulations on owning a 560 SEL. (Good boy, Rover!! You want a pat on your head?) Your challenge to me to donate money in order to show I’m a “real man” is utterly ridiculous and is further proof of how INSECURE you are with yourself.

      Next, you again drone on with the “blah, blah, blah.” Again, what does ANYTHING you now say have to do with your stupid “advice” to FRIVOLOUSLY threaten lawsuits? Try to stick with the subject at hand.

      Jack

      [P.S.: When you say “show me YOUR a real man…”, I believe you mean “YOU’RE.” You are = “you’re” not “your”. You keep making that mistake. A “real man” should learn how to write in an intelligent fashion. To quote you, “There is NOTHING ‘bogus’ with incompetence in any field.” “Dude!!”]

    • #287171

      Sylvan:

      What you recommended was to fabricate an accident, a burn victim, and therefore a frivolous cause of action in order to get a plumbing job done more quickly. Depending on the jurisdiction, that would expose the original claimant to counterclaims and, potentially, severe penalties. In short, I recommend that you stick to your own profession. You’re a plumber, and apparently a very insecure one.

      Another observation … you seem to believe that the car you drive, the fees you generate as an expert, and the expensive meals and hotels you enjoy serve to persuade others as to your level of competence. That’s tantamount to saying that a con artist who makes a good living is suddenly legitimate.

      Leave the practice of law to licensed professionals and leave that chip on your shoulder at home. You spend a lot of time talking about how impressive you are … convince yourself, not me.

    • #287172

      I clicked on a post entitled low water pressure to find this? You kids debating on who drives the most expensive car doesn’t really help anyone elses plumbing issues. Why don’t you guys meet face to face and settle it like “real men” and stop hiding behind your keyboards.

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